Two Old Soul Movie Podcasts in one weekend?! Does it get any better?! Strap in those seatbelts and hold on tight, as we go for a thrilling ride into the mind of Sir Alfred Hitchcock. Emma was adamant that we warn you that this episode contains spoilers for Rebecca…so *spoilers*! Let the 2021 experience continue as we all fall down the rabbit hole that is, Hitchcock’s “Vertigo”.
Two Old Soul Movie Podcasts in one weekend?! Does it get any better?! Strap in those seatbelts and hold on tight, as we go for a thrilling ride into the mind of Sir Alfred Hitchcock. Emma was adamant that we warn you that this episode contains spoilers for Rebecca…so *spoilers*! Let the 2021 experience continue as we all fall down the rabbit hole that is, Hitchcock’s “Vertigo”.
Please Comment, Rate, and Share our episodes and tell us what you like and what you want to hear more of!
---
Be sure to check us out on
Our website: https://the-old-soul-movie-podcast.simplecast.com/
Twitter: @oldsoulpod
Instagram: @oldsoulmoviepodcast
Vertigo-v1_mixdown
[00:00:00] Jack: [00:00:00] welcome to the old soul movie podcast. You are number one spot for classic movie rewashes and breakdowns. My name is Jack arenas, and I'm here with my sister, Emma Reavis. We decided that we wanted to make a show that reflected our love and appreciation for classic movies. And while you're here, hopefully we can share that together as an old soul family, we're going to be diving to these movies scene by scene and giving our modern reactions to the films that have influenced generations of people.
[00:00:39] There'll be fun. Facts, heartaches, tears, laughter, and everything in between. And with that being said, sit back. Relax and enjoy the show.
[00:01:00] [00:01:00] Hello. Hi everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the old soul movie podcast. And today we are covering a big one. It's vertigo offered Hitchcock's masterpiece from 1958. Emma, how are you tonight on this late late night, this late. Spooky ish kind of recording night. It's as a, this is kind of a spooky little movie, a little mysterious one.
[00:01:23] Uh, how are you?
[00:01:25] Emma: [00:01:25] Oh, I am very excited. Um, if you did not listen to our other episode, gentlemen, prefer blondes, just a big, thank you again for participating in our poll tournament. And, uh, we had a tie, so we are covering both movies this weekend. Uh, if you haven't listened to the other one, so we are really excited to cover two pretty big movies.
[00:01:48] Yeah, I just, I can't wait. And again, thank you so much for the participation. I was blown away by how enthusiastic people were for their movies of choice. [00:02:00] And if your favorites did not make it, please DM us at also movie podcast on Instagram. And we will try to fit it into our lineup, but yeah, overall, it really fun.
[00:02:10] And I can't wait to break this one down because this is actually a very. Important movie, very well-known movies. So I can't
[00:02:18] Jack: [00:02:18] wait. Oh yeah. It's one of the, it's one of the greatest of all time, honestly, it's one of the greatest all time. And, uh, and yeah, I mean, last week's episode gentlemen, preferred lawns, we'd recorded it pretty late at night.
[00:02:30] You know, we had a lot of general shenanigans here and there, but we might have something similar tonight who knows. So, yeah, I'm a, what do you think of when you think. Vertigo. Like what is the first memory that you associate with this film? So
[00:02:47] Emma: [00:02:47] I remember, okay. This movie has inspired a lot of other graphics or, or art or pieces in other films.
[00:02:59] Uh, [00:03:00] so I feel like one of my first memories is actually kind of an illusion to this movie. Uh, probably the scenes in pushing daisies the show. Yeah. There's also references to this movie in twin peaks. So I feel like I heard the references first. So then when I did watch this movie, it was like, okay. Oh, yeah, that's the source material.
[00:03:19] Um, I was always really intrigued about this movie. I feel like it sucked me in just a very similarly to, um, our protagonist here and his lady. Yeah. I was really interested in it. It, I remember the first time I watched it. I didn't love it the first time I watched it, but I've grown to really appreciate it.
[00:03:40] And. Similarly in when it was first released, uh, it was not a huge commercial success and there were different people trying to blame different reasons for that. But I think this, I really think if you're just an average, Joe, this movie might not click with you right [00:04:00] away. Uh, but I think if you become a little bit more tuned with a different.
[00:04:05] Cinema techniques and all that good stuff. Uh, you really see how innovative and beautiful this movie is.
[00:04:12] Jack: [00:04:12] Yeah. I was going to say, it's interesting that you said that you associate sort of these, these graphics with vertigo because I have here that this was the first film to use computer graphics, all bass for the opening title sequence.
[00:04:26] That's pretty cool. And not only that, but I think that. This is a pretty unique Hitchcock film in the sense that there is a little bit of this extra use of special effects. And so, yeah, I definitely definitely feel you when you say that that is something that you associate with vertigo, because I feel like that for me, as well as the first thing that I think of that sort of little spirally falling down the, you know, the distance kind of, I don't know that that graphic.
[00:04:57] So, yeah, I definitely agree with you there. And I agree [00:05:00] with you in the sense that I could see how somebody would not like this. Maybe as much as some of his other works, but I think at the, in the same way, it's just a, it's a different type. It's a different type of movie. And so you can't really look at it in the same way, but it's definitely worth respecting and it's and, uh, And it's, I guess it's uniqueness.
[00:05:21] So yeah, I mean,
[00:05:23] Emma: [00:05:23] so you said a couple of standout things there. So you mentioned Saul bass, if you're not familiar and you did not listen to our anatomy of a murder episode, Saul bass designed, uh, the same graphic art for that movie as well. Um, as well as some other movies, which we mentioned on that podcast, definitely check it out.
[00:05:40] That's fun episode. Okay. Uh, but yes. Then you mentioned the spiral. Uh, the spirally graphics and there's actually a huge use of that spiral motif. There's actually a bunch of running themes, a bunch of different iconography or imagery that is pretty recurrent [00:06:00] throughout the movie. And it all just. Ties back and ties into each other.
[00:06:05] So I think that that is part of why this is such a beautiful film, both for psychological elements, story elements, artistic elements is really got so much going on. So I just love it. Um, So this movie, actually, some people consider this to be the best, a movie of all time and not citizen Kane. Wow. So I think that's really interesting that it's kind of neck and neck with these two.
[00:06:30] Uh, but you really do see. Those similar techniques that might lend to that title. So this movie made famous the Dolly zoom technique. Uh, so the zoom out track in shot known as the conscious zoom or, uh, Trombone shot. I
[00:06:49] Jack: [00:06:49] just, I always called the, the, the vertigo essentially, right. Just the vertigo shot.
[00:06:55] Exactly.
[00:06:56] Emma: [00:06:56] Because, uh, that, that, uh, camera work [00:07:00] mimics the sense of vertigo for the audience. Uh, so for example, the view down the mission, stairwell costs $19,000 for a couple of seconds to get that shot through that camera work, which is really crazy. Also, the lighting in this movie is also very noteworthy kind of that.
[00:07:16] The soft focus, like, uh, specializing, especially on the metal line character. So really, really neat there. And yeah, I mean, okay. So on that note, the casting, this is the last film that stars James Stewart, uh, in Alfred Hitchcock's works last time they worked together. So that's pretty noteworthy. And then the role of Madeline.
[00:07:41] That was, uh, it seemed like a couple of actresses were interested in that role, Vieira miles who played Mary and sister in psycho was actually signed on, but then she became pregnant and the timing was too close for her with giving birth and going back to work and stuff. So. That's an workout. Other people [00:08:00] interested in this role include Audrey Hepburn and also Marilyn Monroe, who we just talked about in our other episode.
[00:08:06] And she, Marilyn was turned down because they worry that her newfound, huge fame and persona would be too distracting. And I actually, I would've loved to have seen a screen test with her, uh, kind of would have been a throwback to her talents in darker movies when she was just beginning like Niagara and don't bother knock.
[00:08:25] So that would've been cool to see a screen test. At least I do think Kim Novak actually worked so great in this movie and I will dive more into that as we get into the rewatch, but all at all, I'm happy with it, but
[00:08:38] Jack: [00:08:38] the casting, some sort of rumblings that Alfred Hitchcock said that she was miscast. So I was curious to hear what your opinion on him was.
[00:08:47] I thought that she was totally fine and honestly, I loved her. I loved her. I thought she was great. Uh, but yeah, it is very interesting to think about what could have been maybe with one of those other options on [00:09:00] the table, especially mayor Marilyn Monroe.
[00:09:02] Emma: [00:09:02] Yeah, I actually, I almost wonder if it could have been Maryland a row, if you would have gotten, well, I guess hit or, well, psycho wouldn't have come out yet, but I wonder if you would have gotten like a prototype and you would have, uh, taken Maryland's kind of sweet persona and then, um, kind of distorted it like to what's the word I'm looking for?
[00:09:26] Basically mess with people. So you think you're getting one thing and then the character turns out to be something else. And I think that would have been a really interesting, yeah, but all in all, I think it all works. And I mean, come on, look at this location shot on location four in San Francisco, California.
[00:09:47] Oh yeah, absolutely gorgeous. Uh, the city of San Francisco, there's actually a huge kind of recurring theme. You can see in fiction, uh, where the city or the location is a character in and of [00:10:00] itself and San Francisco's the perfect setting because it's got kind of that Misty, mysterious fog going on.
[00:10:07] You've got a lot of Hills, which is paralleling
[00:10:10] Jack: [00:10:10] this height, height
[00:10:12] Emma: [00:10:12] up, up and down situation. Um, The trees, the woods that are nearby, we'll get into it all later, but a lot to do with ups and downs Heights and all that good stuff. So I it's just gorgeous. Oh my gosh. This just made me want to, this may be miss traveling.
[00:10:33] I would love to go to San Francisco. Yeah, the, see all this
[00:10:37] Jack: [00:10:37] stuff there. There's a few things that kind of pop out. To me when you say all that, and I guess it circles back somewhat to the, uh, the notion that this might not be, uh, everyone's favorite cup of tea right off the bat. And I think that, uh, Vertigo is a little intimidating in some ways.
[00:10:57] I think that there's a lot of interpretations [00:11:00] for kind of what everything can mean. You know, sometimes when you're watching something and you know, that it's important, you're, you're kind of caught up in, Oh, what does this mean? Am I missing out on something? Uh, and so I think that that too, for me at least was just in the back of my mind and maybe it's in some other people's minds may be that they're, they're missing out on something or that, uh, They're interpreting it the wrong way.
[00:11:25] And so how would you, how would you handle that, that feeling of thinking, okay, like what should I be, how should I be consuming this movie? I don't
[00:11:38] Emma: [00:11:38] think there's like ever necessarily right way or wrong way. And that's actually the beautiful part of this movie is it is jam packed with a lot too. Unpack.
[00:11:50] So essentially, I mean, there are scholarly articles at the scholarly articles on interpretations and analysis of this [00:12:00] movie. And I would say that, you know, I, I think pick out what stands out to you when you're watching it and start there and see where it goes for you. Because at the end of the day, art is so personal and every movie, some different element can.
[00:12:18] Speak to different person in different way or something. My seem more important to others. So I would say, you know, pick out what you see is maybe something that's frequently used or centered in the movie, and then just kind of reflect on
[00:12:35] Jack: [00:12:35] that, like recurring almost
[00:12:37] Emma: [00:12:37] sure. So for me, okay. When I watched this, I see a lot of different mental States being portrayed in this movie.
[00:12:45] I see, uh, Uh, a lot of different interactions revolving around an obsessive state of mind, a guilty and shameful state of mind, and a state of living in a delusion versus facing [00:13:00] reality or living a delusion in the face of reality. So I see kind of distorted mindsets and that mimics the distorted perception, that very title and a condition of vertigo.
[00:13:17] Suggests. So, you know yeah. If you want to start somewhere, start with a theme, like what is vertigo exactly. And how do you see that maybe, uh, mimicked or paralleled? I
[00:13:29] Jack: [00:13:29] think that you just brought up an excellent point. Something that we should definitely. Define is the word vertigo itself, which means a sensation of whirling and loss of balance associated, particularly with looking down from a great height or caused by disease affecting the inner ear or the vestibular nerve giddiness.
[00:13:50] So that is the literal definition of vertigo. It's different than
[00:13:55] Emma: [00:13:55] a fear of Heights.
[00:13:57] Jack: [00:13:57] Right. And how would you define that difference?
[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Emma: [00:14:00] I think that a fear of Heights is like any phobia,
[00:14:04] Jack: [00:14:04] the idea of it, or actually being high
[00:14:06] up
[00:14:07] Emma: [00:14:07] both. I think that in Scotty's condition here, he has a fear of Heights in what he is in the midst of that fear.
[00:14:14] It offsets his vertigo, but you don't necessarily have to be high up. I mean, look at, uh, arrested development. Lucille too. She is someone who famously battled vertigo. So like looking down and. It feels like off kilter and Scotty gets that feeling when he is in the midst of his greatest fear.
[00:14:37] Jack: [00:14:37] Yeah. Yeah. We can see, you know, the, the development of this acrophobia, the extreme fear of Heights, as well as the vertigo, a quote, a false sense of rotational movement.
[00:14:47] So
[00:14:50] Emma: [00:14:50] they could kind of like. Impact each other, maybe the vertigo causes them to have a fear of Heights also.
[00:14:58] Jack: [00:14:58] Yeah. Well, I mean, [00:15:00] speaking on the, uh, the famous sort of vertigo, uh, the Dolly effect, uh, I guess it was inspired by Alfred Hitchcock himself when he almost fainted during a party kind of circa around 1940, a little bit before Rebecca.
[00:15:14] So, um, I think it's cool that he had this sort of idea at least. In the development for nearly what? 18 years. Um, so pretty crazy to almost just work with a concept. And then,
[00:15:28] Emma: [00:15:28] well, the story itself is based off of the 1854 French novel don't trade. They more. So it's adapted from that. But I have to say, uh, you mentioned Rebecca, I think this is kind of like the daughter, the spawn of spawn of Becca or, uh, of some of the stuff that went into that movie.
[00:15:49] Uh, he actually did want to use that Dolly shot kind of technique, but didn't really know how to do it at the time. Keep in mind. Rebecca came up before citizen Kane. So I feel like there, and that's [00:16:00] very much a movie revolving around obsession, for sure. Fixation round someone, a portrait of a woman. Like there's a, there's a lot of, um, splashes of them, OB that I see in this one.
[00:16:13] So. I think that very much inspired it. And I think that this just takes it to a whole new level of not just maybe an internal battle, but external battle with the real world. Yeah. And then, you know, this impacted some of his work going forward. So, you know, I like the consistency, the growth, uh, That Alfred Hitchcock says it himself and, and runs with, as he figures things out as the years go by.
[00:16:42] Jack: [00:16:42] Yeah. Pretty crazy to think how, how that almost surrealist theme works within citizen Kane and how it works within and is used in vertigo. And I actually, I re-read Orson Welles interview and the Playboy, uh, the director [00:17:00] interview book, and he did not rate. Alfred Hitchcock in it when he was asked about best contemporary directors, I think they mentioned him, but he had this weird sort of relationship.
[00:17:12] So yeah, just thinking about that and influences maybe that one had on the other and vice versa. Is is pretty cool to analyze. And, uh, and yeah, I can't wait to talk a little bit about the nuances of vertigo as we continue this. Yeah.
[00:17:28] Emma: [00:17:28] I mean, like I mentioned earlier, this has inspired so many other television works, film works, and it's really amazing to see something be so artistically, prolific and.
[00:17:42] Yeah, again, I was pretty young the first time I watched it and I think my understanding of film and my tastes have totally changed. And I have to say that this is such a phenomenal movie for so many different reasons. And I can't wait to break down what those are scene by scene as well.
[00:17:58] Jack: [00:17:58] Oh, for sure. For [00:18:00] sure.
[00:18:00] I think it's also worth mentioning. How it might be a little bit difficult to find online and why that may be now, how we find our movies, if we're going to watch it. And we don't have it in a readily accessible library, I love Netflix, Hulu or Apple know, whatever. Uh, we usually use Amazon prime video just rent it.
[00:18:27] No questions asked, give me the goods. However, this time we were not able to find vertigo on Amazon prime video. And I do wonder if it is related to it being part of a certain select few Alfred Hitchcock films. Emma. Do you know what I'm talking about? And do you want to expand on that
[00:18:48] Emma: [00:18:48] the last five, but you, you go on ahead.
[00:18:52] You're on a roll.
[00:18:53] Jack: [00:18:53] Oh, well, thank you very much. And I mean, I cannot say that I'm an expert in this by any means, but like you [00:19:00] said, uh, for other movies, along with this one, we're unavailable for three decades because the rights were bought back by Albert Hitchcock as part of his legacy to his daughter, Patricia.
[00:19:12] And so. Like you mentioned, they're known as the quote, five loss Hitchcock's among movie buffs and they were released in theaters around 1984 after, like I said, a 30 year absence. So I don't know if this is related to that, but you know, vertigo, the man who knew too much rear window, one of our faves. The trouble with Harry.
[00:19:35] I mean, it's Hitchcock. So
[00:19:36] Emma: [00:19:36] actually, I mean, I I've seen all of those. A it's hard to pick a favorite, but, but like a lot of favorites, a lot of personal favorites for me in that. So that's actually, I mean, it is shocking to think that those were. So inaccessible for so long, but I'm very grateful that they are available, even if it does take a minute to find
[00:19:58] Jack: [00:19:58] online.
[00:20:00] [00:19:59] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can, you guys can still find it thankfully, but it might not be as easy to find as some of the other ones that we cover here, but worth. Watching none the less Emma, what other things do you think are important to discuss before we kind of get into the rewash? This is another one where I feel like we can kind of get lost in the sauce and really go on and on about the, uh, the production of it.
[00:20:23] I mean, for God's sake, like the costumes, we got Edith. Oh my gosh.
[00:20:28] Emma: [00:20:28] Brilliant. Edith had some of the most, some of the most beautiful costumes in this movie. You want
[00:20:33] Jack: [00:20:33] to talk a little bit about how and why her. Uh, I guess decisions on costumes were important. Well, there are
[00:20:42] Emma: [00:20:42] definitely a bunch of reasons. I think what's most interesting though, is that Alfred Hitchcock was also quite obsessive and worked very closely with Edith head to determine these costumes.
[00:20:51] And, uh, even the very famous gray suit, Kim Novak was a little uncomfortable wearing that, but it [00:21:00] actually was kind of like. A good step into the role she was playing of something feeling stiff and uncomfortable and not natural. Uh, it's just amazing to see using actual costuming for a psychological impact here on your actors.
[00:21:18] So I think that's quite amazing.
[00:21:20] Jack: [00:21:20] Yeah. You know, it's funny just about, uh, the relationship between Kim Novak and, uh, Alfred Hitchcock. And this is just from reading a few of the fun facts about the movie is just kind of how, how Alfred Hitchcock approached. Character development and character motivation.
[00:21:40] Like I was just reading and I saw how Kim Novak asked Hitchcock about, you know, her motivation in a particular scene. I'm sure you saw this where he answered. Let's not probe too deeply into these matters. Kim, it's only a movie sometimes. I wonder that sometimes I wonder that myself, like, am I really [00:22:00] just diving?
[00:22:01] Unnecessarily too deep into this when there might not even be like any kind of, uh, I don't know, reason or logic behind a motivation, like, cause it could potentially be very complex with Kim. Like she is a complex character, so you know what I
[00:22:18] Emma: [00:22:18] think? And let me see if I can say this is. The way I was thinking in my head, you know, ma maybe you don't want to clue in your actor into everything because okay, when you're taking in a piece of literature or film, every character has their external motivations and internal motivations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:22:38] We can usually identify what those are when we're taking it in. Now, I don't know about you, but when we're living real life, You know, it, you really have to, self-analyze set sometimes to be like, okay, I just did that now. Why am I really doing that? And we don't really do that. Yeah. So I wonder if he wanted to keep [00:23:00] it a little bit more surface level to make that come through more authentically, but then again, I could just be diving into it very deep also,
[00:23:10] Jack: [00:23:10] who knows?
[00:23:11] Yeah, I need Hitchcock to tell me, like, calm down, Jack. It's just a movie. Like don't, don't lose sleep over this.
[00:23:19] Emma: [00:23:19] And on that note, I think it's kind of funny. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna misquote it. But when Alfred Hitchcock was asked to kind of summarize this film, he was. Basically like, Oh, it's about a guy trying to get with a dead girl.
[00:23:35] I just loved the simplicity that he could boil this down to. It's amazing.
[00:23:40] Jack: [00:23:40] Yeah. When you can condense it to a sentence, it's the, it's the sign of sheer mastery. So God love it. Sir. Offered Hitchcock. Emma, what other things do you think are worth mentioning before we get into a rewatch? You
[00:23:54] Emma: [00:23:54] know, there is so much, and yet again, I'm sure I'll forget things.
[00:23:58] I definitely have a [00:24:00] lot more to say, I think scene by scene as we break it down, but all at all, I would say, uh, if you. Have washed this one before and didn't love it. Definitely try it again. And if you do love it, hopefully you'll pick up something and keep in mind, I guess, as we're going through this for me, when I watched this, I tend to focus on the mental States of the different characters and that's kind of my big takeaway and that distortion.
[00:24:26] Mirroring his vertigo condition. That's my own interpretation, but there are so many, so whatever you pick up from this film, no that you're not wrong. Maybe, you know, like that, you know, it's just your own interpretation. That's the beauty of this film. There's just so much to it. So what you get out of it, that's
[00:24:44] Jack: [00:24:44] awesome.
[00:24:45] Well said, well said Emma, and, uh, and yeah, if you guys have anything else that you think that we need to talk about, Feel free to hit us up. Also move podcasts on Instagram. Also pod on Twitter. Tell us what we missed. Tell us, Oh [00:25:00] my gosh. I can't believe you guys didn't mention this. I can't believe you guys didn't mentioned that.
[00:25:07] But yeah. Emma, are you ready to get into it? Oh, I
[00:25:10] Emma: [00:25:10] am ready to head to foggy mysterious. 1958 San Francisco.
[00:25:17] Jack: [00:25:17] Oh boy. Here we go. I feel like this is like a Halloween episode almost. It's so mysterious and spooky. I love it. I love it. So here we go. After an excellent title sequence by Saul bass, we see a rooftop chase where a fellow policemen falls to his death.
[00:25:36] San Francisco, detective John Scottie, Ferguson retires due to fear of Heights and vertigo. Scottie tries to conquer his fear, but it's ex fiance, underwear designer, Marjorie Midge wood says that another severe emotional shock may be the only cure Emma. This is a crazy opening sequence.
[00:25:58] Emma: [00:25:58] Wow. Wow. Wow. It is [00:26:00] iconic.
[00:26:00] I mean, the beginning is just so cool and ominous the, yeah, the, the lighting, the closeups on the, I, this might be one of the most visually pleasing films of all time. And, uh, it's kind of like the first sentence in the book. The first sentence gives you a taste of what to come. Maybe the first couple sentences and this title sequences.
[00:26:21] Telling you that you're going to be diving into dark twisted, beautiful fantasy.
[00:26:27] Jack: [00:26:27] Oh my God. Like we're here talking. It is an album as a matter of fact. And so, Oh my goodness. Out of left field, Connie referenced that you didn't expect that here, guys. I sure didn't a little, a new school. Oh, a new soul old soul, new soul.
[00:26:45] Movie podcasts, new soul music, podcasts, maybe. Uh, yeah, but, Oh my gosh. What a, what an opening title sequence.
[00:26:53] Emma: [00:26:53] Herman score. What a masterpiece. I mean, again, citizen Kane guy right here. He was [00:27:00] the composer for citizen Kane. Soundtrack did so many others, which I'm sure I know, which I know we've mentioned a ton, but this is yet another one.
[00:27:09] I mean, you've got the all star team right here, in my opinion. You've got. Bernard Herman. You've got a great graphic artist with Saul bass. You have Alfred Hitchcock as the director. You have Jimmy Stewart and your lead. And I know there's some controversy with that with him, maybe being a little too sure.
[00:27:26] But you know what? I'm here for it. And you've got kind of this cool newcomer with Kim Novak. I mean, not that she was that much of a newcomer, but Oh my gosh, I'm ready to go here. And you establish a fear. Pretty early with this height, vertigo situation. So that'll be a great story tool going forward.
[00:27:45] There's so much that you can do to manipulate your protagonist when there's this deep rooted fear.
[00:27:51] Jack: [00:27:51] Yeah. Yeah, no, it's that classic Hitchcock character development in the, uh, the opening sequence is kind of like a rear window even, uh, saying a lot without [00:28:00] saying a word. Um, I mean this one, mostly through action rear window through exposition and the setup, but, uh, But yeah, I mean, lovely, nonetheless, and you, you can tell where this guy is coming from.
[00:28:14] Exactly. Jimmy Stuart. Maybe he is a little bit on the older, more mature side, but he's still daddy. We love him here. Uh, and yeah, we're here for it. So, and
[00:28:24] Emma: [00:28:24] I mean, what a complicated relationship between him
[00:28:27] and
[00:28:28] Jack: [00:28:28] Mitch, uh, where do we even begin with?
[00:28:33] Emma: [00:28:33] It's such a mess. Okay. First of all, little, little side note, another gentlemen prefer blondes recall they discuss a strapless bra.
[00:28:41] Ironically, the bra that was referenced here as a breezier designed by an aircraft engineer is in reference to the story that Howard Hughes famous producer. Aviator, uh, engineered and invented a bra for Jane Russell. Our dear Dorothy from [00:29:00] gentlemen, prefer blondes. So fun little tie in there. And then, yeah, very interesting career choice to give Mitch to be a, an underwear designer, just from a writing standpoint, could be a commentary on her femininity and she's designing all these things, but there's this disconnect with her man just.
[00:29:22] She's not her man.
[00:29:24] Jack: [00:29:24] Yeah. Yeah. How would you describe this relationship? Because I, I can't say that she's trying to win him back in a way. Um, or is she like, how would you describe it?
[00:29:36] Emma: [00:29:36] It's so awkward because she, to me, she is still in love with him and he is just. So non-caring, he just sees her as a friend.
[00:29:45] I think it's that classic unrequited love situation, but she's kind of playing it. Cool.
[00:29:52] Jack: [00:29:52] Yeah. Trying, uh, sometimes not so subtle, but apparently she's the one that called it [00:30:00] off. So she, uh, she had the chance it's out the door and it has opened up the possibility for a, another. So we'll see, we'll see how this regresses, but.
[00:30:13] I'm not going to
[00:30:14] Emma: [00:30:14] lie. I think that he moved a little too quickly here with his self administered exposure therapy, uh, working on, uh, working on that with a therapist. His fear of Heights would probably be course number one to take if this was taking place in the modern world, but he's in a situation where he is doing this by himself.
[00:30:33] And I don't know if it's like the most advisable
[00:30:35] Jack: [00:30:35] thing. Yeah. You know how it was back in the day. Why not just jump off the deep end, learn how to swim, figure it out. Uh, But yeah, again, probably not the, uh, I dunno the most intelligent way of going about it, but that is what modern psychology is here for us.
[00:30:51] Emma: [00:30:51] But from a story standpoint, it just reaffirms that he is not over this
[00:30:55] Jack: [00:30:55] condition. No, not in the slightest. All right. [00:31:00] Are we good to move on? Ready? So after this, uh, I guess failed attempt at conquering his fear, uh, which is just hilarious that he tried like that. But anyway, you have an ulcer and acquaintance from college asks Scotty to follow his wife, Madeline claiming that her mental state was abnormal and could put her.
[00:31:21] Endanger Scotty reluctantly agrees and follows Madeline and to a florist where she buys bouquet to the mission, San Francisco, DAS CCE, and the grave of one car, lots of Valdez, and to the lesion art museum, where she gaze at the portrait of Carlotta, he watches her enter the McKittrick hotel, but upon investigating, she does not seem to be there.
[00:31:44] All
[00:31:44] Emma: [00:31:44] right. All right. All right. The story is now getting just a touch juice here. What are your thoughts on this Elster guy? Yeah. What are you, what are your thoughts off the bat here? I'm a
[00:31:57] Jack: [00:31:57] little, uh, I'm a little lukewarm [00:32:00] about them. I'm not really feeling one way or the other, I guess you could see him as being a little sketchy, but I guess we're trusting naturally of him.
[00:32:09] Uh, but. To approach Scotty, you know, he he's retired and, um, he's out of the game. Like why do you approach Scotty? I think that's what I'm, uh, more so wondering. Than anything else, but, uh, what do you think?
[00:32:25] Emma: [00:32:25] Uh, Oh, let me, I actually meant to say this before we started going. I figured we would just go about this as if like, I'm not going to spoil the ending.
[00:32:34] I'm going to be talking about this as if I'm actively watching this. Right. And I don't know the ending. Yeah. Whoops. Okay. Back to the, back to my thoughts elsewhere. I don't know. I just get like, I don't. Distrust him, but I don't trust him per se. I think that maybe that also maybe took me [00:33:00] back probably the first time I watched this, when I was younger, he's suggesting some super natural stuff.
[00:33:05] What's uh, like, you know, Hitchcock, his movies are pretty, uh, pretty true crime. He doesn't really dabble in the supernatural world. So I think I was like,
[00:33:20] Jack: [00:33:20] Yeah.
[00:33:23] Emma: [00:33:23] And let me put this out there. Uh, people scare me way more than ghosts. Do I feel like that else? So it's kinda like a K. Um, but right now, and this was very much marketed as a supernatural kind of thriller.
[00:33:40] Uh, yeah. So I think I'm kind of questioning this, uh, Demon story that I pitch. That's my jumping off point. I don't, you know, I'm not going to say it's not real, but, um, something about this is just like, Hmm. I'm not my alarm bells. Aren't going [00:34:00] off quite yet. Uh, yeah. Setbacks of this film are just gorgeous.
[00:34:04] I love the contrast in colors. I love how the color circle back to each other throughout the film. It feels a very cohesive and great use of lighting. It really does make her like when he meets Madeline for the first time, it looks like she's glowing. Like she has a halo situation going around. We finally get that first.
[00:34:25] Mental state of idealizing her and building up this fantasy of her in his head.
[00:34:32] Jack: [00:34:32] Well, it's interesting that you talked about the lighting because I also see here that opport Hitchcock reportedly spent a week filming that brief scene where Madeline stares at the portrait in the palace of the Legion of honor to get the lighting just.
[00:34:48] Right.
[00:34:49] Emma: [00:34:49] Yeah, it is crazy, but it pays off and you see it used in such a great way that ties into our parallels. What's going on in the story. For example, [00:35:00] he's following her through a dark passage at one point, and then you open the door and boom, it's a bright, colorful flower shop on the other end. You just see so many.
[00:35:09] Contrasts. Um, and it's like the same thing, but you see different sides of it. Keep an eye out to see if that happens with any characters at any point. Yeah. But, Oh, and I mean, come on this gray suit, one of the greatest costumes or most well-known costumes of all time, Edith had chose it because at that point in time, gray was not conventionally seen as a blonde color.
[00:35:34] So. Her kind of stepping out of her comfort zone there, or what's normative to the eye. And also it was actually so interesting. I want to say heard the story on TCM said at some point, but, uh, a long time ago, I think it was a woman was in a vintage clothing shop and she bought this gray suit and she looked at the tags that were sewn on the [00:36:00] inside of the suit.
[00:36:01] And it said paramount studios and either Kim Novak or K Novak. And she was like, Oh my gosh, I think this is the suit from vertigo. And it was verified that that was Kim Sue. It somehow did end up in a vintage clothing shop somewhere and it ended up being auctioned off, um, a few years ago. So I just think that's crazy to think what could be out there.
[00:36:23] In a different vintage clothing shops. I was actually watching an episode of pond stars the other day. I don't really watch that show. No, I actually really don't watch it, show it all, but, um, like it came on and, uh, Yeah. When in Rome. Yeah. They were explaining about verifying movie costumes from movies and that the identifiable in this of it, and that actually contributes to the value of a costume when you can look at it and be like, that's, Kim's dress from vertigo or that's Dorothy's from the wizard of Oz or that's Maryland's from gentlemen for her blood.
[00:37:00] [00:37:00] Uh, yeah. So I think that's just interesting how. That's terminal value and you can recognize it. Yeah.
[00:37:06] Jack: [00:37:06] Here's a question for you. Would you say anything if you found that dress or would you just keep it and then just tell everyone that, Hey, I got the dress from vertigo. Cause I think, I, I don't know if I would tell anybody and I would just keep it and let it be a secret.
[00:37:19] But then again, you're kind of holding onto like a, an important. Historical artifact to be a
[00:37:24] Emma: [00:37:24] thousand percent honest, like as much as I really would want to keep it. I actually think I would donate it to a museum of sorts, like a Hollywood history. Film preservation. Like I, I would hold onto it for a day.
[00:37:38] So kids take a lot of pictures,
[00:37:42] Jack: [00:37:42] maybe go grab some pizza,
[00:37:45] Emma: [00:37:45] but I would keep the secrets to myself for a little, for like a very fleeting minute and that I would donate it for historical preservation so that everyone could enjoy it, you know? Cause I would love that.
[00:37:58] Jack: [00:37:58] We'll always have [00:38:00] Paris. We're going to make some Casa Blanca themes here on this, uh, this fine January night.
[00:38:05] Emma: [00:38:05] So I might be a little too hard on Jimmy here, but is it just me or is he not being that discrete
[00:38:13] Jack: [00:38:13] private to detective? I mean, maybe it's just, you know, operate in broad daylight. But one of those things where he just blends in with the crowd, but I know exactly what you're saying here. He is a little bit too exposed for my liking.
[00:38:26] Uh, not yet, not quite as, uh, I guess hidden as one would expect to be a private detective. Uh,
[00:38:36] Emma: [00:38:36] also when he goes to the hotel, I think that this hotel keeper lady is a little bit of a weirdo.
[00:38:43] Jack: [00:38:43] Uh,
[00:38:46] Emma: [00:38:46] again, she's she seems a little kooky and the shots going up the stairs. Look. Really similar to the eventual movie that will be psycho. So I see a little bit of self inspiration there from Hitchcock [00:39:00] at yeah. So cool shots, uh, all around and I can't wait to see what happens next.
[00:39:07] Jack: [00:39:07] Oh, definitely. Definitely.
[00:39:08] So here we go. A local historian explains that Carlotta Valdez committed suicide. She had been the mistress of a wealthy married man and for his child, the otherwise childless man. Kept the child in cast, Carlotta aside, Gavin reveals Carlotta, who he fears is possessing. Madeline is Madeline's great-grandmother.
[00:39:30] Although Madeline has no knowledge of this and does not remember the places she has visited Scottie tails Madeline's of Fort point. And when she leaps into the Bay, he rescues her. Okay. Here we go.
[00:39:42] Emma: [00:39:42] Okay. So we've officially established the connection between Carlotta and Madeline. I'm sorry. I am still, yeah.
[00:39:53] This supernatural thing. I
[00:39:59] Jack: [00:39:59] again, I think,
[00:40:00] [00:39:59] Emma: [00:39:59] cause I am used to the typical plot summary of a Hitchcock movie. I feel like my brain was probably trying to piece this together, but you know what I mean? You know, who doesn't have an issue piecing two and two together is Midge. No. She took like two very obscure pieces of information and figured out everything that was
[00:40:22] Jack: [00:40:22] going on.
[00:40:23] Yeah. A little strange. I will admit the supernatural part of it. Maybe that is honestly something that is off-putting to people when they watch this, you know, that, uh, that aspect to it, because it does just kind of give it this, like, I dunno, weird feel, uh, And it's funny. I mean, we're kind of poking fun at it here, but I guess it does work within the context of the plot, but
[00:40:47] Emma: [00:40:47] I don't know if it does.
[00:40:48] And here's my issue with this supposedly ghost
[00:40:52] Jack: [00:40:52] that goes to Carlotta
[00:40:53] Emma: [00:40:53] here. Things are getting a little weird. Apparently Madeline has no idea about her relation [00:41:00] to Carlotta. So, cause I think that Scotty had a very valid point. Sometimes you just get obsessed with someone when you start learning about them.
[00:41:09] Yeah. And then her husband shoots that down. So he's really pushing this ghost thing on us now. Okay. Here we go. So this little Bay situation at Fort point, so this ghost possessing, her tries to kill the body. She's possessing. Like, what is this Ghost's end game? What would she be getting at here? Jumping five feet into the water?
[00:41:36] Yeah.
[00:41:37] Jack: [00:41:37] Like she, what was she tossing the flowers in and you know,
[00:41:41] Emma: [00:41:41] herself in, but like what a, what a ghost kill the body of the person they're trying to possess. Isn't that kind of your key into the
[00:41:49] Jack: [00:41:49] world? No. And he goes to this personally, so I cannot ask them what the, uh, what the exact motives are. But yeah, it is a little questionable and I would [00:42:00] need personally, I would need some more details from.
[00:42:04] I guess Madeline into the mind of Carlotta possessing me. Like I would eat some more details, you know, yelling about old people, like whatever the president was at the time or, or whatever, something from 1830, one to 1857 to quiz this ghost. Oh yeah. I'm closing. I'm quizzing the ghost all day. You know, 20, the only connection that I have is that they're both 26 and like that hat that's the reason why she is, you know, you know, uh, Determined to, to kill herself.
[00:42:37] So I don't know. That's not enough for me to be convinced personally, but yeah, I mean,
[00:42:42] Emma: [00:42:42] I don't know to me, like, what are you trying to accomplish here ghost? I don't get it. And, and I don't want to come for Scotty's private detective skills again, but I feel like I would have covered my basis here in breached out to a medium.
[00:42:55] I'm sure they had someone who claimed some psychic [00:43:00] abilities in the 1950s. Like, I'm sure that is find-able so. I would have, you know, done some research.
[00:43:06] Jack: [00:43:06] Yeah. Carlotta Carly, you're not fooling us at least. I mean, you can fool, uh, Scottie all you want. Yeah.
[00:43:16] Emma: [00:43:16] Oh, but I mean, like it's, it's actually now what half an hour into the film or a third of the way through or something like that.
[00:43:21] And we're finally getting to meet her. Yeah. This is
[00:43:25] Jack: [00:43:25] a pretty long sequence. Him kind of tailing her and everything. It doesn't happen that quickly. It is kind of a slow burn in the first third, but.
[00:43:34] Emma: [00:43:34] Each act is kind of a slow burn.
[00:43:37] Jack: [00:43:37] Yeah, it does feel longer than 128 minutes in ways.
[00:43:43] Emma: [00:43:43] The way you kinda know when you remember a dream and it felt very comprehensive.
[00:43:47] But, Oh, okay. Like, you know, when you wake up accidentally and then you go back to sleep and you're like, Oh, I have 15 more minutes left. And then it feels like a whole book just pass through your head. And then it's 15 minutes later and you're [00:44:00] like, wow, that was a lot happens in that amount of time. I feel like that is kind of like this movie.
[00:44:06] And speaking of that dreamy, like quality, I mean, wow. We get to hear her voice for the first time. It's all sorts of sleepy dreamy. Wonder woman ish. She's she's quite a Marvel and, uh,
[00:44:23] Jack: [00:44:23] wonder woman or not. No. Did you say wonder woman or, yeah, I did say wonder
[00:44:28] Emma: [00:44:28] woman. I met. No, no. I met no purposeful reference to superheroes.
[00:44:36] Uh, my vocab just decided to come out that way. Sorry, but I mean, So he sees Elster again still, and he's continuing to push this narrative on us. And besides that sort of obsession, we see some of the obsession for Mitch. She's got a little bit of obsessive [00:45:00] possessive love going on for Scotty. I mean, going outside his house.
[00:45:06] Uh, yeah, I mean, like I've mentioned earlier, the. Possession controlling obsession, nature people. That's very much a recurring theme throughout the movie.
[00:45:19] Jack: [00:45:19] Right. And Scotty doesn't know about this. Would you say Scotty doesn't know, Scottie doesn't know.
[00:45:27] Emma: [00:45:27] Scotty is a little bit more oblivious than, um,
[00:45:32] Jack: [00:45:32] yeah. So Scotty doesn't know, Scott got it.
[00:45:37] I'm so sorry for everyone in advance. We're probably gonna make many Scottie doesn't know jokes. They're on all this because Scotty does it not does anyways.
[00:45:47] Emma: [00:45:47] So what happens next after all these weirdos are
[00:45:50] Jack: [00:45:50] weird? Yeah. After all these weirdos are weird. Uh, the next day Scotty follows Madeline. And they meet and spend the day together.
[00:45:58] They traveled to [00:46:00] mere woods and Cypress point on 17 mile drive, where Madeline runs down towards the ocean very dramatically. I might say, Oh yeah, Scotty grabs her. And they embrace while the waves crash behind them. And the music plays triumphantly. The following day, Madeline visits, Scotty and recounts, a nightmare.
[00:46:18] And Scotty identifies its setting as mission San Juan Bautista, the childhood home of Carlotta or Carly. He drives her there and they express their love for each other metal and suddenly runs into the church and of the bell tower, Scotty halted on the steps by his acrophobia sees Madeline plunge to her death.
[00:46:40] Emma: [00:46:40] Okay. A lot of thoughts here. I mean, one of the things I like about mysteries, mystery movies, when there's a little mysterious action going on is it's fun to kind of put your mindset in a. The killer. And at this point we think that killer is Carlotta. You know, this little demon demon, [00:47:00] ghost
[00:47:00] Jack: [00:47:00] demon,
[00:47:01] Emma: [00:47:01] and let's say, Carlotta, the ghost is plotting to murder this woman.
[00:47:06] She got hello, lucky that he got the hookup with, uh, Mitch's historian friends, so that he could learn this piece of history about her. And let's say that the killer. Isn't Carlotta, hypothetically, that person would also have gotten very lucky that Scotty somehow researched this woman's background and found this out.
[00:47:28] Jack: [00:47:28] Yeah. And a day before Wikipedia, nonetheless, I mean, it's all fitting a little bit too cleanly for me, you know, especially when it comes to the supernatural, I feel like this is just, I don't know, some, some question marks are raising here. You
[00:47:42] Emma: [00:47:42] know, I get that. Uh, but other elements, uh, one of my other favorite costumes is this black and white number with the sheer black scarf.
[00:47:51] Love it. Love it again, high contrast. You're going into that contrast state of mind.
[00:47:58] Jack: [00:47:58] It's getting more black [00:48:00] and
[00:48:00] Emma: [00:48:00] white, some great, beautiful lines here with that. You know, only one is a wanderer bit super, super romantic. And it's fun because you get these little bits of suspense. You get these little like, like.
[00:48:14] Many candy bars, uh, you know, when he forgot to close his door or something, and he's like, wait right here. And you think that this girl could vanish in an instant. So it keeps you on your toes, even in very small ways, which I like, I like that incorporation. And, uh, looking at Muir woods, the sequoias, the redwoods, so unbelievably amazing.
[00:48:37] What are the most gorgeous, natural wonders of the world? In my opinion, redwoods fascinate me. Redwood trees are between like 250 to 300 feet tall, which for reference, uh, the statue of Liberty is 305 feet tall. And some trees are even taller than that. So unbelievably huge and their roots are only like [00:49:00] five or six feet deep.
[00:49:01] So that's insane to me. And I feel like these trees are dead again, another symbol of Heights and being rooted, uh, I'm sure that Alfred Hitchcock did not know, you know, the logistics of Redwood trees roots when he made this, but it does make me think of something that goes so high up and has such a different view and has very little to cling to in the earth.
[00:49:26] So I don't know. Really insane to me. Very symbolic. Very cool. And wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. We got some passionate kisses here. The water against the rocks, like it's these two verses the demon ghost. I'm
[00:49:41] Jack: [00:49:41] here for it. Yeah. I, I just, I think it's hilarious because okay. The Redwood scene again, if we're going to rewind it, looking at the, uh, the brains on the trees, I'm a little like.
[00:49:59] Emma: [00:49:59] This [00:50:00] ghost took a little too
[00:50:01] Jack: [00:50:01] far here. Ghost took it a little too far. I think that it was a little too forced here. This is where I died. Um, that whole kind of ordeal, I was like, All right, come on. What are we up to here?
[00:50:15] Emma: [00:50:15] Beer? Does it also like, not make that much of an impact? They're just like a few rings,
[00:50:20] Jack: [00:50:20] right?
[00:50:20] Right. Exactly. Like it's only earrings apart. Um, not only that, but if I'm Carla at the ghost, wouldn't you want to be like a little more subtle? I don't know. Maybe that's just, that's just it.
[00:50:32] Emma: [00:50:32] That's why I'm really struggling to figure out the motivations behind this demon ghost. If there is such a thing,
[00:50:38] Jack: [00:50:38] right.
[00:50:40] Carly come on up your game. You had what? A hundred years to practice it. Apparently. Why now? Why now? Why not her mom? Why not? You know anyone else? Why is, why is Madeline the chosen one? I don't, I don't know, but here we are again. Yeah. Scotty, what? Okay. It's a
[00:50:59] Emma: [00:50:59] famously [00:51:00] creepy scene though. I do love it because it is so like creepy, but also.
[00:51:06] Jack: [00:51:06] Come on Scott. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Anyway, sky. I don't know personally how he is kind of falling if you can even call it that in love with Madeline here, because okay. He's
[00:51:23] Emma: [00:51:23] got a
[00:51:24] Jack: [00:51:24] distorted image, got a distorted image. Like, yes, she is a dime. She is a flat-out dime, but. I don't think that that's enough personally, for me to look past the, uh, possession here, the possession, she's
[00:51:39] Emma: [00:51:39] got some dreamy charm to her when she's in that Metaline state like post to bridge saving incident.
[00:51:46] I think she's got a little bit of sophisticated lady vibes, which I think he's drawn to, but. You know, it's a perception and his perception is skewed in more ways [00:52:00] than
[00:52:00] Jack: [00:52:00] one. Right? It's a little, it's a little too fast, maybe for me. Uh, but that's just me. That's just me. And, um, and yeah, I mean, Oh my goodness, we get all the way to mission San Juan Bautista.
[00:52:11] Was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we get to that whole bag of beans?
[00:52:16] Emma: [00:52:16] Quick line? Cause I think this moment deserves it. Midge. Ooh, major rejection that was tell, and I don't know what that girl was thinking. I really don't like, what was she trying to be funny? But she's trying to be cute.
[00:52:31] Was trying to be attractive. Nothing about that. Screamed someone being on their game with. Seducing someone I wish, I wish I could have been there to be like, girlfriend. I don't know.
[00:52:43] Jack: [00:52:43] Yeah. Or just, yeah, that one's in the, uh, the drafts pile. I don't know where that was. Not a, uh, yeah, a recommended action to take on.
[00:52:53] Mitch's part. Yeah. How, how depressing is that
[00:52:57] Emma: [00:52:57] all jokes aside though? I mean, she is [00:53:00] trying to distort her view to be like desirable to him. Like this girl seems desirable to him. You know what I mean? She's trying to change his perception of her.
[00:53:10] Jack: [00:53:10] Yeah. Let's just cut out my face and kind of post it on top of the, uh, the body of.
[00:53:15] I dunno my, I don't know, like celebrity crush or something. I don't even know how I would describe it, but that's like essentially what she did and this weird, uh, way of trying to seduce Scotty, like, did you really think that he was going to look at that and say like, Whoa, now Midge. Let's do this,
[00:53:34] Emma: [00:53:34] my friends, not a good move.
[00:53:36] That was brutal. It was brutal to watch
[00:53:38] Jack: [00:53:38] you're in underwear designer, like come on. I just think that she had better tricks up her sleeve then, uh, I dunno, painting myself as the, what, the ghost of something that is. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:53:52] Emma: [00:53:52] exactly. The girl he's in, but she doesn't know that. Exactly. I don't know. Still weird.
[00:53:58] Still weird.
[00:54:00] [00:53:59] Jack: [00:53:59] Questionable. All right. Anyways, anyways, we get to mission San Juan Bautista, the childhood home of Carly, the ghost Carlotta, and. Here we gray
[00:54:10] Emma: [00:54:10] suit is back baby. And what's fun is there's little hummingbird broach. I think so. I wonder if that's supposed to symbolize the sense of trying to go backwards, which I feel like will pop up again.
[00:54:25] That sense of trying to get something back, uh, Yeah, there you go. Whether it be Carlyle to the ghost or other characters as this continues, just my own little thoughts, lots of more gratuitous, passionate kisses. Uh, there's like a lot of kissing scenes and this actually
[00:54:43] Jack: [00:54:43] nothing wrong with nothing wrong with that.
[00:54:45] Emma: [00:54:45] And you get this baby climax scene of the whole, I don't even know how to describe it first. First
[00:54:55] Jack: [00:54:55] climax at first climax, I'm like, [00:55:00] this is a jarring movie, I think, because it really does show pretty graphic deaths or I don't know, just like the act of falling. Um, it's scary. It's a scary concept. And it's even scarier to witness someone like.
[00:55:18] Literally fall to their death. And we already saw it once with the, uh, the policemen at the very beginning. And now we see it with Madeline, like a ragdoll flying past Scotty. In the stairwell, he cannot get out because of his vertigo. And this is
[00:55:39] Emma: [00:55:39] that fair that use of that camera. Dolly zooming technique comes into play, uh, that very expensive scene, $19,000 scene.
[00:55:50] Right. Really great job really, really does a good job of mimicking that sensation.
[00:55:55] Jack: [00:55:55] Yeah. Hashtag worth it. But. Yeah, we see Madeline [00:56:00] plunged to her death and Scotty is just demoralized. I mean like completely demoralized, completely dejected. How would you feel if you're, if the love of your life just ended up being possessed and flung off the side of a bell tower and yeah, I mean, but
[00:56:22] Emma: [00:56:22] like, again, I just.
[00:56:25] If I thought my love was possessed by a ghost. No. I mean, I actually probably would have called a priest first. Like if I'm actually
[00:56:36] Jack: [00:56:36] buying, um, I mean, you're at the mission of San Juan Bautista. I think, you know, find one, it's not like they're in short demand or short supply there. Um, if you're not religious,
[00:56:46] Emma: [00:56:46] I mean, why not try it?
[00:56:48] I don't know. Get some Holy water. I feel like there were solutions to this. I just, I I'd have a really hard time believing that. My [00:57:00] person was possessed by ghost and that ghost killed.
[00:57:07] Jack: [00:57:07] Yeah. It's just like, even what she was saying before. I can't remember the exact line of what she said. Like, if this is the last time we see each other, uh, well, I can, do you remember what exactly she said?
[00:57:16] I can't remember off the top of my head, but everything lined up a little bit too nicely, uh, for Madeline's death here and. I don't know. I would, again, yeah. Question how Carlotta is able to, uh, I dunno, not burst and combust into flames. On-site on the, uh, the Holy grounds of San Juan Bautista also. But yeah, I mean, it is a, it is a crazy, crazy jarring scene and, um, and yeah, it is.
[00:57:46] It's
[00:57:46] Emma: [00:57:46] shocking to the system as an audience, for sure. Especially if this is your first time watching it.
[00:57:52] Jack: [00:57:52] So not expecting it. And like between that the scream, the F the split second of watching her fly, [00:58:00] uh, Beyond the window, like it is crazy to, uh, to witness
[00:58:05] Emma: [00:58:05] kind of reminds me a little bit of what he'll use in a few years for psycho, you grow an attachment to this female lead, and then she dies, you know, and I feel like it's a lot more shocking to the system and psycho, but you do have that same element.
[00:58:25] And shockingness here. It's just kind of maybe a smaller dose, but yeah, you see where these works, inspire each other for sure.
[00:58:32] Jack: [00:58:32] Definitely. Definitely. All right. So after this, the death is declared a suicide. Gavin does not fault Scotty, but Scotty breaks down becomes clinically depressed and is in a sanatorium almost catatonic after release Scotty frequents, the places that Madeline visited often, imagining that he sees her one day, he notices a woman who reminds him of Madeline, despite her different appearance.
[00:58:56] Scotty follows her and she identifies herself as Judy [00:59:00] Barton from Selena. Kansas.
[00:59:02] Emma: [00:59:02] All right. Well, well now, I'll be a little honest here. I feel like they're coming for Scotty, even though he was just essentially cleared, you know? Oh, it's not your fault, but like,
[00:59:16] Jack: [00:59:16] yikes. Yeah. Scotty, you might want to sit this one out again
[00:59:20] Emma: [00:59:20] because Scott, he's a terrible person.
[00:59:22] Who's terrible at his job. Doesn't mean he's responsible. I feel like that's their attitude towards
[00:59:28] Jack: [00:59:28] yeah. Blaming it again on the guy with the, uh, I don't know, the. Registered condition, psychological condition. Exactly. So a classic fifties move, but
[00:59:42] Emma: [00:59:42] I think the realisticness realistic reality of this is also a little off.
[00:59:48] I've watched a lot of Dateline in my day and the spouse is always number one, looked at when there's something suspicious going on. So I find it hard to believe [01:00:00] that they're like, Is Scotty terrible person. Oh, but Mr. Elster, you're fine. You're good to go.
[01:00:09] Jack: [01:00:09] Yeah. Not, not even a, I don't know, not even a question.
[01:00:13] Like where were you that day? Like, it was just Scotty, apparently. So, but ulcer is
[01:00:19] Emma: [01:00:19] the one that like prompted all this. So I, I find that very chill. California in court here, like very relaxed.
[01:00:30] Jack: [01:00:30] I have no clue. Um, what the process was back then. I love
[01:00:36] Emma: [01:00:36] that Alastair is just like, well, got a peace out.
[01:00:39] Jack: [01:00:39] Yeah, I'm just gonna leave now.
[01:00:42] Um, Yeah, but yeah, after 20 years, what he, uh, we kinda lost track of him after the army. Uh, I wonder why Elser is like the weirdest kind of flakiness dude ever. Um, his wife just casually dies and he's not even like, uh, flustered [01:01:00] in the slightest bit. So it's like put
[01:01:02] Emma: [01:01:02] myself in Scotty shoes here. Yeah. I have acquaintances from college that I haven't talked to in awhile.
[01:01:09] It, if I heard from one of them completely out of the blue, and then they asked me to do some very borderline sketchy stuff, even if it was like investigation related and then someone died and then they're like, well, see, ya
[01:01:29] Jack: [01:01:29] know, That's when you kind of take the old, uh, yeah. Yeah. You just question a lot more than what is going on and, uh, you know, it's
[01:01:40] Emma: [01:01:40] a movie, it's
[01:01:40] Jack: [01:01:40] all fun, you know?
[01:01:42] Yeah. I mean, just like Chuck said, it is. Yeah. It's just a movie anyways. Um,
[01:01:48] Emma: [01:01:48] but then following the scene, a very, very famous sequence follows with the different, multiple lighting, the dream situation, the [01:02:00] swirling. Of his past experiences looking back kind of looking at clues or it's an opportunity for us to look for clues in his subconscious.
[01:02:09] Yeah. So I love this scene. It's absolutely incredible graphic design way ahead of its time. In my opinion, love the swirly shapes. Again, we're getting that swirly motif, just like that spiral in her hair, just like the staircases. It's a symbol for sucking you in kind of like when you're looking at that, like.
[01:02:29] Hypnosis swirl. You know what I mean? And also call me crazy, but I don't know if she shared the same opinion. I feel like the actress that plays Carlotta in the sequence, like the human form of Carlotta in the dream sequence, she's played by an actress named Joanne . I think she looks a lot like veer miles, who is their Oh, gee madeleines choice.
[01:02:57] So I'm curious to, she was hired for [01:03:00] that resemblance. I don't know. I just looked at her and when she's kind of like looking at Scotty, but looking over to the husband, I'm like, she looks really familiar. She looks like Vera. So I don't know. I'm just curious about that,
[01:03:12] Jack: [01:03:12] but whatever, that's a good point.
[01:03:14] Good. Uh, I guess good thing to point out there. What do you like about that scene? I mean, I don't want to dive too deep into it, but I love pretty much everything about it. That's kind of the cop out answer, but I think it's just a great sequence because it does really mimic, I think how you feel sometimes, you know, you're just, you're so lost in your own head.
[01:03:35] It feels like you're seeing a bunch of different colors. You're seeing like all those kinds of, uh, flashes and you're just lost sort of within yourself and, um, I mean, that's what he's feeling. You know, he, uh, he lost someone who he loved and, you know, maybe we're, you're throwing logic to the, to the side and a reason out the window here because we're not questioning Elster at all, but, [01:04:00] uh, but it doesn't really matter because, you know, he, I think.
[01:04:04] I mean, he experienced what the death of a fellow policeman. Now he's got this on his hands and maybe he's starting to blame himself in a way. And so yeah, you, you feel for him and, um, and yeah, the entire sequence is great. It's probably, it's like Willy Wonka, you know, it's like the Willy Wonka when they're going into that, uh, that riverboat thing, um, I don't know, maybe, maybe there was some inspiration or parallels drawn there, but, uh, but yeah, I don't want to cover that one.
[01:04:33] Great sequence. Great seat. Oh, like a
[01:04:36] Emma: [01:04:36] pod. I'd love to do that. Like, like, like a kid's movie. Yeah.
[01:04:40] Jack: [01:04:40] We'll figure it out. Guys. Let us know. Also move podcasts on Instagram. Also bot on Twitter, hit us up. If you want to see discovery, uh, we walk in the trunk, factory, not Charlie and the chocolate factory with a giant deck because that one was wack anyways.
[01:04:52] Emma: [01:04:52] But we do, uh, we do get to meet Judy in the sequence, this character, Judy, and, uh,
[01:05:00] [01:05:00] Jack: [01:05:00] too late
[01:05:00] Emma: [01:05:00] today. Judy is a little scrappy
[01:05:06] Jack: [01:05:06] scrappy.
[01:05:10] Emma: [01:05:10] I like her too. She's just a little bit more rough around the edges. Uh, she's not quite refined. She's not quite the Madeline the elegant battle line that we know. But, uh, yeah, she's got her own Judy charm. So what are our thoughts on Judy here? Oh, also, yes. I mean, if you didn't pick this up already, this is also played by Kim Novak.
[01:05:32] Um, Kim Novak did not wear a bra in any of the scenes where she's portraying Judy, which would have been very, uh, unusual at the time with the film code still in place, but they wanted to give her sort of that like. Not quite put together
[01:05:48] Jack: [01:05:48] book. Yeah. More Bohemian, maybe. I don't know, but it's crazy to me because she looks so different from blonde to brunette.
[01:05:57] I actually did think it was someone different. Like [01:06:00] I was not there right away. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like,
[01:06:05] Emma: [01:06:05] but also like kudos to the makeup department because they. Took a pretty heavy hand at the Judy makeup kind of probably like her character would, I guess. Yeah. And I think that, yeah. Costume between the costumes, makeup, and hair color change, and Kim Novak's acting, I think that you do get two very distinct.
[01:06:28] For women here. Yeah.
[01:06:30] Jack: [01:06:30] And I guess I'll, I'll, I'll just put this in here because I think we're talking about it. So it might as well be mentioned, but a flashback reveals that Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy, was the person Scotty knew as Madeline, Esther. She was impersonating Gavin's wife as part of a murder plot.
[01:06:45] Judy drafts, a letter to Scotty explaining her involvement. Gavin had deliberately taken advantage of Scotty's acrophobia to substitute his wife's freshly killed body. And the apparent. Suicide jump, but Judy rips up the [01:07:00] letter and continues the charade because she loves Scotty. Wow. Okay.
[01:07:05] Emma: [01:07:05] Okay. Probably one of the biggest controversies in the entire film, the flashback, what do you think of it?
[01:07:14] What do you think of its use this early?
[01:07:18] Jack: [01:07:18] Oh, wow. Um, I think I. I'm with it. I actually kind of needed it as a, a viewer just to make sense of what the hell is going on. But, uh, I mean, if it wasn't clear before. I think Carly, the ghost Carlotta can officially be put to rest. She is not real. Um, it was all a ploy, a very out of guests, poorly thought of ploy.
[01:07:47] But I
[01:07:48] Emma: [01:07:48] would argue that it was an extremely creative ploy that I don't think anyone in the history of the world had been thought of
[01:07:54] Jack: [01:07:54] before, I guess. Yeah. I mean, when you think of something that's so outrageous like that, It's almost [01:08:00] like it has to be true. So, um, so yeah, props to you, Allister, uh, good job.
[01:08:06] And, um, I would just love to, I guess, be in the meeting between Judy and Elsa for the first time. Like, hear me out here. Uh, you're going to be possessed, but yeah, what, what makes it a. I guess a, a controversial scene for you or in the general public
[01:08:27] Emma: [01:08:27] during production. Uh, this almost didn't turn out the way it turned out.
[01:08:31] There were some objections of. To Hitchcock of you're going to spoil the surprise with 30 minutes left to go in the film. So I think there was some worries that, um, you know, in other thrillers you get this kind of shocking ending. And I think the worry was was that there's still a good, like 30 minutes is a good amount of time.
[01:08:53] That's like a whole sitcom episode. So you're basically have all this time left. To [01:09:00] resolve it. And how do you do that in a satisfying way? But here's the thing it's done in such a masterful way, this technique for suspense, because it gives us some closure on all the weird supernatural nonsense and death.
[01:09:15] Uh, so we get to put that to rest and now it plants a new suspense in us. Now we, as an audience, know the danger and the truth in our protagonist, doesn't something that we've seen in other Hitchcock films, for sure. So now it leaves us wondering what will happen next. So for the remainder, for the rest of this 30 minutes, we're kind of figuring out how these.
[01:09:42] Worlds will collide how Scotty's disordered view will collide with the reality of the situation, the gravity of the situation.
[01:09:51] Jack: [01:09:51] Yeah. I mean, just like Eminem said, we are snapped back to reality. Oh, there goes gravity and yeah. Carlotta is gone. I'm glad [01:10:00] that we can honestly just kind of get past that because it was a little distracting personally, but, um, But yeah, it kind of
[01:10:07] Emma: [01:10:07] subverts that ghost story genre, kind of like how I, you know, I bet knives out, took a hint from it.
[01:10:13] You think you're getting one thing and then it turns it into another and then it open. It goes right back again. And this kind of is like, you think you're going into a Hitchcock crime movie. Oh, it's a ghost supernatural. Paranormal activity movie up. Nope, that's true crime. So that's fun to see the John of subverted upon itself.
[01:10:31] Yeah. So gotta love it. Gotta love it. And again, more beautiful cinematography choices. I love that image of the neon green light against her silhouette. It recalls that patch of green. She was wearing at the beginning of the film with that black dress calling upon the theme of delusions and realities and.
[01:10:52] Seeing things in certain lights, just beautiful and brilliant.
[01:10:56] Jack: [01:10:56] Yeah. I think we also get to. To concentrate more [01:11:00] on the real antagonist of the film, or maybe the main conflict, which is really just Scottie battling his own fears of Heights in vertigo. I feel like that too was something that just still was unresolved.
[01:11:11] And now we get to like, mainly focus on that as well as just, yeah. How, how is this going to get resolved with, uh, with Judy now? Like what is going to happen here? So, um, so yeah, it brings like a whole new dynamic. To the film and I feel like it picks up a lot from, from this point on. So, uh, so yeah. Can we, can we go, can we go for it?
[01:11:32] Emma: [01:11:32] Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's skin
[01:11:34] Jack: [01:11:34] good. So yeah, they began seeing each other, but Scotty remains obsessed with Metaline and asks Judy to change her clothes and hair to resemble Madeline after Judy complies, hoping that they may finally find happiness together. He notices her wearing the necklace portrayed in Carlotta's painting and realizes the truth that Judy had been Ulster's mistress before being cast aside just as Carlotta was [01:12:00] Scotty insists.
[01:12:01] On driving Judy to the mission. Wow.
[01:12:05] Emma: [01:12:05] Wow. Okay. So right here, I'm officially going to give my Emma stamp of approval on Kim Novak playing this role because at the end of the day, This Metaline Judy situation. That's a tough role to play much like the ballet Swan Lake that ballerina has to play the white Swan and the black Swan, two very different, uh, demands and techniques and vibes that you're going for.
[01:12:37] And this is very similar. You're playing two very different woman and you're trying to do it convincingly enough for both of them. And that's where I've sold. I think Kim Novak plays a sophisticated, wealthy wife very well. And I think she plays small town girl from slant of Kansas, just trying to make a buck very well.
[01:12:59] And that's [01:13:00] hard to do at the same time and the same movie. And I don't know. Yeah. I, some of those other names I think it could have been done, um, it's harder for me maybe to see. But, you know, I wasn't in the casting room, but overall Kim Novak nails it. So I
[01:13:18] Jack: [01:13:18] love it. Oh yeah. Definitely. Definitely. I mean, I have very little to add to that, except that, um, that moment of it's almost like a false ending too, when they sort of embrace and then it's like the, uh, you know, the kiss or whatever, and it's like, yes, they finally found that happiness and then, Oh my goodness.
[01:13:38] When the realization hits with the necklace, it's like a whole new dynamic.
[01:13:44] Emma: [01:13:44] Yeah. Up to that point. It's great. I mean, uh, you see, character-wise the obsession coming out and the control coming out, Scotty over Judy madeleines to get this reality back. Um, and it's interesting, like I kind of mentioned earlier, Hitchcock himself [01:14:00] was very obsessed with the costume and this character life imitating art, that necklace see situation.
[01:14:06] Um, Woof like, you know what I mean? It's uh, the thread of her weavings of life finally begins to unravel and yikes. Is it messy?
[01:14:20] Jack: [01:14:20] Oh boy. Oh boy. They started driving to the mission there. He tells her he must reenact the event that led to his madness admitting he now understands that Metaline and Judy are the same person.
[01:14:33] Scotty forces are up the bell tower and makes her admit her deceit Scotty reaches the top. Finally conquering his acrophobia, Judy confesses, that Gavin paid her to impersonate, a possessed Madeline, and that Gavin. Faked the suicide by throwing his wife's body from the bell tower. Judy begged Scotty to forgive her because she loves him.
[01:14:54] He embraces her, but a shadowed figure rises from the tower strapped door startling, [01:15:00] Judy who steps backward and falls to her death. Scotty bereaved again, stands on the ledge while the figure a nun investigating the noise rings the mission bell
[01:15:12] Emma: [01:15:12] and intense ending.
[01:15:14] Jack: [01:15:14] It's a scary ending. Honestly, the nuns scared me.
[01:15:18] The nuns scared me. You would've lost your footing too. I mean, all I'm saying is we could have used, you know, a little light, maybe a candle or something. It is a dark and spooky bell tower, like, uh, maybe, uh, a little guardrail or something. I don't even know, like something, something there to, uh, to prevent that.
[01:15:38] But, um, The load for you
[01:15:43] Emma: [01:15:43] to be said to that. I mean, you get a very dark intense ending at the dark side of Scotty's is coming out with his fantasy is shattered. He turns into a little bit of a. Ms. Gary scary. I'm sure you [01:16:00] don't see the guy you've been seeing. I'll say that. I mean, he has kind of gullible this entire entirety of the film and then you get to see this guy that's like trying to take back the whole that's been pulled over his eyes and the nun at the end to kind of does kill me.
[01:16:16] I mean, I know, you know, Stereotypically like, you know, you have a sense that nuns are reverence, but I mean, this was a very chill reaction to someone comparing to their tech. Right.
[01:16:31] Jack: [01:16:31] I was just investigating the noise again. Let's ring the bell. Very nonchalant. Nun sister, father, I don't know mother superior if it's mother's spirit, but probably sister anyways.
[01:16:45] Um,
[01:16:46] Emma: [01:16:46] but Amy, like writing wise, could you ask for anything more? There's a great recall to the beginning of the film when Mitch was saying an emotional shock might be the only cure. Love it, love it. Cause he's definitely gets that and more, and [01:17:00] it is interesting to me because. What I do like about this crazy dark ending is that Scotty is looking down at the end, but he's not like paralyzed with fear.
[01:17:11] So I'm wondering if that perhaps means he's free, free of his vertigo free of these shattered distorted images that he sees. So I kind of liked that. I get a sense of a resolution there that sits very well with me. And this is actually a very important note that I did not want to miss. This is the only one of Alfred Hitchcock's movies in which the killer is not punished.
[01:17:38] I mean, you could argue that modeling was, I mean, Judy madeleines was like an accomplice to the murder and she was punished. Uh, but that is highly unusual. And here's why the production code at the time. Would not permit a killer to get away with a murder. So actually this, uh, if you've ever seen a [01:18:00] Rebecca, and if you've read the book, Rebecca, the plot is changed because a husband couldn't get away with murder.
[01:18:07] So they had to adapt the screenplay so that it wasn't showing a guy getting away with murder. So in this situation, they actually did have to film an additional or alternate ending in which Scottie and Midge were listening to the news. And Gavin Ulster was sought by the police and maybe caught, uh, but they actually didn't include that.
[01:18:30] So they kind of got away with a production
[01:18:33] Jack: [01:18:33] murder there. Yeah. Production code, murder. Exactly. You know, we can always just assume that maybe that happens, but, um, You know, artistically, I do like how it ends with, uh, with Scotty sort of on top of the bell tower. And yeah, I do feel like he is now free from all of his old sort of fears, uh, with that long shot too.
[01:18:54] It's not even just like, it's a close-up on him. It's like, it shows, uh, the setting [01:19:00] too. And, um, I do feel like in a weird way. He'll be, he'll be okay after this. And maybe, maybe him and Mitch live happily, uh, happily ever after. Maybe she finally gets a clue and starts. I don't know, maybe designing underwear instead of painting portraits of old women that were apparent ghosts, who knows, but amazing ending amazing film vertigo, vertigo everyone from 1958, Alfred Hitchcock.
[01:19:25] What a film, Emma. Wow. And
[01:19:28] Emma: [01:19:28] you know, what's great. Sorry. This is a little late to the game here. One last thought just popped into my head. This is the second time this man has been caught with a woman falling from the tower. And it's greatest. He has a witness this time with the nuns. So I think he'll be fully exonerated.
[01:19:47] And maybe if you want to twist in your own head that he. Gets justice for Mrs. Elster and that, uh, Mr. , I bet you could spin it that way anyway. I sure do.
[01:20:00] [01:20:00] Jack: [01:20:00] I sure do, because that's how we do it on old soul. That's the old soul way. Anyway,
[01:20:05] Emma: [01:20:05] during this one, this is so fun. I really do love this movie so much. I was so happy to see that you guys loved it too from the pole that like definitely warmed my heart.
[01:20:15] So that was exciting.
[01:20:17] Jack: [01:20:17] Always does also a fan. Be sure to check out more polls, more interactional stuff, more fun stuff for the community on ultimately podcast on Instagram, also pot on Twitter. Be sure to hit us up, follow us, share this episode, share the social, share with anyone who you think would love it.
[01:20:34] Anyone who is a old film, officio, natto, and if the spirit moves you be sure to check us out on Patrion and. Please donate. If you are able to, to help the production costs of the show, we greatly greatly appreciate anything that people are willing to put forward. We are always, always grateful for the old soul fan Emma, anything else before we sign off here on.
[01:20:58] This wonderful [01:21:00] January night,
[01:21:01] Emma: [01:21:01] we have got some fun February episodes ahead of us. So keep an ear out for those. I think there'll be some fun ones, fun. Valentine's day special. Get excited for that. Um, so we can't wait.
[01:21:15] Jack: [01:21:15] Definitely, definitely. Uh, as always, we love you all appreciate you from all corners of the globe.
[01:21:24] We are all. An old soul fam, we are an old soul fam. So until next time everyone take care. Be sure to keep an eye out on social media and can't wait to see you all next time. And hopefully that is very soon. Take care.