Beat out dat rhythm of the drum with Emma and Jack as they discuss the 1954 film Carmen Jones! Based on the original 1875 opera Carmen by Georges Bizet, this is one of the most unique and celebrated works in Black Cinema History and one you won’t want to miss.
Beat out dat rhythm of the drum with Emma and Jack as they discuss the 1954 film Carmen Jones! Based on the original 1875 opera Carmen by Georges Bizet, this is one of the most unique and celebrated works in Black Cinema History and one you won’t want to miss.
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Carmen Jones (1954)
[00:00:00] Jack: [00:00:00] welcome to the old soul movie podcast. You are number one spot for classic movie rewashes and breakdowns. My name is Jack Oremus, and I'm here with my sister, Emma Oremus. We decided that we wanted to make a show that reflected our love and appreciation for classic movies. And while you're here, hopefully we can share that together as an old soul family, we're going to be diving to these movies scene by scene and giving our modern reactions to the films that have influenced generations of people.
[00:00:39] There'll be fun. Facts, heartaches, tears, laughter, and everything in between. And with that being said, sit back. Relax and enjoy the show.
[00:00:59] Hello [00:01:00] everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the old soul movie podcast. And tonight we're going to be talking a little bit about the 1954 film. Carmen Jones. Emma, how are you? And, Oh my goodness. What a fun, fun. Different film. This was, this was such a unique surprise. I loved it. Um, I can't wait to get into it, but first, how are you?
[00:01:21] Me
[00:01:21] Emma: [00:01:21] too. I am good. I am excited to continue celebrating black history month. Excited to kind of do like a mini celebration for Harry Belafonte's birthday, which is March 1st. So in a couple of days, he will also be 94 years old, just like Sydney . So, and he is obviously very prevalent in this movies. I am excited to tackle this one because it really has been such a game changer.
[00:01:49] We've talked about it before on both our black cinema history episode and our auto premature episode. So now we're actually going to take time solely devoted [00:02:00] to
[00:02:00] Jack: [00:02:00] Carmen Jones. Yes. And Carmen Jones. Is, I think not only just a film with a unique history, but just a story with a unique history. And that might be kind of a good entry point into where we talk about the film itself with it's just vast, vast background.
[00:02:21] Where, where do you think it would be best to. I guess start with Carmen Jones and Carmen, I feel like the name just evokes a certain story and, um, and Carmen Jones is very faithful to it and, uh, I guess in ways, so, uh, yeah, I'm aware where do we begin? Well,
[00:02:43] Emma: [00:02:43] let's start at the very, very seedling beginning, uh, which I guess there is a novella called Carmen and it was adapted by George for the 1875 opera also titled Carmen and.
[00:02:58] That music is very [00:03:00] famous. You could, you could easily look it up and it's very identifiable, very, very familiar to the masses. And then it was that adapted into a 1943 stage musical called Carmen Jones. And the screenplay for this movie then was by Harry Kleiner based off the lyrics. And book by Oscar Hammerstein the second.
[00:03:26] And, um, yeah, so kind of, since this is so. Closely related to the Broadway musical Carmen Jones. The musical opened December, 1943 and Otto premature saw it, but he was not super impressed with it. He called it kind of a series of skits, loosely based off the opera, Carmen with music tone down for non-operative trained singers.
[00:03:52] So he decided that when he would adapt this to the screen, he wanted to make. It dramatic film with music [00:04:00] rather than a conventional film, that musical.
[00:04:02] Jack: [00:04:02] I definitely can see that in, uh, in the film and yes, the music, I think that's the, the main, the main thing here, right off the bat. I mean, we'll kind of, I guess, be jumping back and forth between the background, the rich illustrious background and the film itself, but, uh, right off the bat, I mean, it's music that everybody knows.
[00:04:21] It's the whole
[00:04:27] Exactly. Exactly. That's the one. And so, um, I think for people that might not be as familiar, maybe with the George BSA, uh, acts the opera, this will be just kind of like a really cool, almost like. I don't even know what I would think of it, like maybe an adaptation or something, because I personally was one of those people, like our old soul fam knows.
[00:04:51] Um, I went into it, not having, not trying to look into the background, not, um, trying to just go in as raw as possible. And so for [00:05:00] me, I actually, as soon as the opening credits. Sort of rolled with the music. I was just, you know, I was smiling. I was super into it. I was, I had no clue what we were about to get into, but, um, but yeah, I mean, I think just, uh, taking that story and then putting it within the context of having an all.
[00:05:18] African-American black cast. It was so cool to see very unique. And I don't, I really don't think that I've seen anything sort of like it maybe like the Wiz, I don't know. And that's 20 years
[00:05:30] Emma: [00:05:30] down the road from
[00:05:31] Jack: [00:05:31] this. Right, right. So this was, I think, very revolutionary and, um, and I guess what it attempted to tackle very cool that auto premature wanted to stay, I think, faithful to the original opera and really going for.
[00:05:46] I think singers that kind of fit that mold more traditionally, but also using a great actors and actresses as well. I think, uh, uh, unless you really look into it or know that it [00:06:00] was dubbed, like the voices were Doug's then you would probably just assume that, uh, yeah. Harry Belafonte and, um, Dorothy Dandridge just have these crazy, crazy voices.
[00:06:12] Um, but. Amazing stuff. Um, uh, what really jumps off the bat to you, like from maybe your first time watching it, even to this last rewatch, uh, what are some of your favorite aspects about it?
[00:06:26] Emma: [00:06:26] Blown away. I think like you kind of nailed it. I feel the same way where, when I watched this, it's like, there's really nothing quite like this out there of that time period.
[00:06:37] And I mean, such beautiful charismatic stars that you have here. I think the casting was really strong. It's just a fun watch. Yeah. Like you say, you can't help, but kind of smile during it. Yeah. And auto premature kind of knew that this would be a risk. This is a little bit of repeat information from our spotlight on him, but still good to note.
[00:07:00] [00:07:00] When this was being produced, premature realized that no one would really be interested in backing an operatic film with an all black cast in the context of 1955. So he decided to produce this independently. Uh, and if you remember, again, back to that auto premature episode, we talked about how he released a movie called the moon is blue, which the NPAA slash you know, authorities on the production code.
[00:07:29] Uh, they objected to that movie and it was released without the seal of approval from the code. Now, auto premature assumed that those same backers that helped with that movie would support this film, but they did not. And he actually paid 20th century Fox, who he was under contract with. $150,000 to cancel the remainder of his contract.
[00:07:54] It was actually a huge shock then because the Fox head who is [00:08:00] Darryl Zanuck, who we've talked about, uh, contacted him and offered to finance the film. And still allowing, um, prem and to be an independent filmmaker. So then premier then received $750,000 that went into production now to give you a little like, um, understanding of that, the budget for this movie was $800,000.
[00:08:25] So premature had only really put in then what, like 50,000 of his own money, if that's yeah. So just kind of interesting there. And then they went forward with production and the production code was still kind of seeding over their last battle with premiere share, uh, with him releasing that pass movie with success without their approval.
[00:08:48] And they actually try to kind of metal with this one a bit. These tried speaking out against this movie as a lustful story with no morality and [00:09:00] premature made some adjustments, but it was still pretty. Pushing the envelope I'd say definitely. And actually I think that premature was a little bit, um, uh self-conscious or like a little bit.
[00:09:14] It had hesitations or concerns of is the script appropriate? Is it representing black individuals the best it can with representation? So actually premature submitted the script to Walter Francis white, who is the executive secretary of the NAACP. And, uh, he checked the script and gave approval. So this was actually also backed by the NAACP.
[00:09:41] Jack: [00:09:41] Interesting. I wonder if there were any sort of alterations done within that process of checking in with Walter Francis white and because I don't know. I mean, watching it, I think it's just so different in the. Uh, the dialogue too, from other films that we've [00:10:00] covered from the fifties, uh, late forties. So it does feel, I guess, just authentic and natural.
[00:10:06] So that's what I think, uh, stood out to me sort of, as I was doing my, my wash through. Yeah,
[00:10:12] Emma: [00:10:12] high levels of opera here. I think if you are a fan of that form of art, I think this is definitely a movie for you to check out because it's fun. You don't see, um, like a musical adaptation straight up of an opera.
[00:10:29] We see, you know, musical adaptations of the stage all the time, but very rarely are we getting, um, You know, pirates of Penzance being filmed on the screen.
[00:10:42] Jack: [00:10:42] So all black cast, I mean, it's, it's so interesting to see. I think that's what was really standing out to me. Uh, while I watched it, I just thought it was cool.
[00:10:53] Like nothing more, nothing less. I was just like, this is just a really cool. Film conceptually [00:11:00] going from, I guess, just the backdrop of world war two towards the very end. Like it was just, it was so different I think. And it really is a, it's a fun way to kind of break up maybe some of the monotony of what is kind of out there already for some like old golden age kind of mid century Hollywood.
[00:11:23] Yeah. So, um, so yeah, if you haven't seen it. Super. Super cool. So I just, I really personally, I enjoyed it because I love like hearing the, the older opera songs that we're familiar with, but maybe just listening to like the, I dunno, instrumental versions of them. So having these lyrics and having this, uh, The story that comes along with it.
[00:11:47] I
[00:11:47] Emma: [00:11:47] think that the cat of this movie is definitely something we should highlight ultra ultra talented. So the casting process, uh, for our main man, [00:12:00] Joe, we have Harry Belafonte. And Harry had been in one movie before and was known for his Calypso music. He brought to pop culture. As you mentioned, last week, he famously sings the banana boat song, AKA Dayo and jumping the line.
[00:12:16] Basically the music featured in the movie beetle juice and yeah, he trained with Sydneyso he had those kinds of early theater roots at the American Negro theater and T so pretty awesome there. Now for the titular role of Carmen, several black actresses of that time auditioned, including earth, a K, which actually think would have been pretty good.
[00:12:41] And she was actually offered the role, but then was told that her voice would be dubbed. So it would be an opera. Singing voice. And she did not want to be dubbed. She wanted to use her natural voice and because she couldn't, she backed out, uh, Joyce bran also auditioned, um, as did Diahann [00:13:00] Carroll, who struggled during her audition due to being so nervous and intimidated by premature.
[00:13:06] Uh, and then she was ultimately cast as Mert, the French who kind of goes up to Chicago with. Um, and, uh, this is her film debut, so pretty cool note there. And Diane Carroll now, Dorothy Dandridge had been interested in this role for a little bit. She was a known nightclub singer, uh, was in a couple movies, at least I believe.
[00:13:29] And. Auto premature. Didn't quite see her as the saucy Carmen, especially when she showed up to her interview. Apparently she was dressed up very. Glamorous. She was wearing long white gloves looked very ladylike. And she was also, um, in a movie with Harry Belafonte, actually in 1953 called bright road. And in that movie, she played a school teacher and auto premature just could not get [00:14:00] the image out of his head of just this nice teacher with Harry, you know, And he was like, you're gorgeous.
[00:14:07] You look like a model. You're beautiful, but you're not Carmen. So maybe try out for Cindy, Lou. And she just took that feedback. Came back the next day for another audition dressed. To the Carmen ness as she interpreted. And he changed his mind right then and there. So pretty, pretty cool. I think that's exactly something Carmen would do.
[00:14:33] And initially she was so excited. But then when it came down to the wire, she almost backed out. She's a little nervous. So premature drove to her residence to give her some comfort, let her know that she would do great in the role and somewhere along the way. They entered into an affair, which I believe we touched upon in our auto premature highlight and Dandridge would [00:15:00] later speak out, uh, how perimeters career advice during the relationship ultimately kind of hurt her in the long run.
[00:15:06] She did not take advantage of some things that she probably wished she would have. And I pictured this, like, are you also picturing this story? Like him, like literally driving to her place, she's crying. He's comforting her and then just like literally Allah, Carmen passionate kiss.
[00:15:27] Jack: [00:15:27] Yeah. I mean, I, trust me, I have a lot to say about just the entire kind of relationship dynamic within the film.
[00:15:34] I could only imagine how. Uh, I guess messy maybe become alluded. It becomes when the lines are crossed between director, actress, head actress, uh, nonetheless title, titular actress. Um, and so, yeah, I, I. I can imagine what you're throwing out there and it's, I dunno, I dunno how it makes me feel. Very sort of uneasy.
[00:16:00] [00:16:00] Emma: [00:16:00] Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's definitely been some behind the scene, bromances and movies, uh, over the years for sure. Uh, Like I mentioned earlier. And like you mentioned earlier, Eartha Kitt turned down this role because she didn't want her voice dub. You mentioned dubbing all the main characters with the exception of Pearl Bailey had their singing dubbed so that it would sound like opera, even though Dorothy Dandridge and Harry Belafonte were known singers.
[00:16:29] Dorothy Dandridge was dubbed by a Maryland horn, a very talented mezzo soprano. Also a 19 year old music student at USC. See at the time, which is wild. And she actually spent some time with Dandridge to make sure that she could imitate the, like, I guess. Qualities of her voice as best as possible. So would sound like her singing and then, uh, Belafonte was dumped by liver and Hutcherson.
[00:16:56] Jack: [00:16:56] Right. And going back to Maryland horn for a second, I [00:17:00] don't think that she was paid very much. I believe it was actually around $300 total voice. And so, right, right. So, I mean, put that within the context of, I guess, for. The, I don't even know if you could call it sort of a, um, a low budget film, like $800,000 at the time is roughly a, what is that 7.7 million today.
[00:17:24] So, I mean, that's not like, uh, it's low budget, I guess, but not like.
[00:17:33] Emma: [00:17:33] Hi.
[00:17:34] Jack: [00:17:34] Yeah, but I guess like, or being the same voice of Carmen, you would assume that Marilyn Horne might have gotten a little bit more than just $300. So, but I mean, she was young, I think she was eager to just, uh, get in the industry. So I'm sure that exposure was appreciated, but yeah, $300 for a 19 year old at the time.
[00:17:57] Uh, Tough tough, [00:18:00] weird kind of thing. Yeah. Well, I'm glad
[00:18:02] Emma: [00:18:02] that she got credit. You know, I'm glad that they, if you look at the title cards, they do accredit them as. Like the singing,
[00:18:08] Jack: [00:18:08] the voice, the voice. I do think that Eartha Kitt would have brought a very kind of soul. I mean, earth, the kid is pretty sultry.
[00:18:15] I mean, jeez Santa baby. So to have her as Carmen, I think could have been, it would have been cool. I would have liked to have seen kind of how that dynamic would have played out. But, um, overall I thought Dorothy Dandridge did an amazing job. I mean, she got an Oscar nomination, so, um, She, I think she was given her credit, you know, but, um, yeah, very, it's just, it's, it's an unreal story to see unfold.
[00:18:42] I had, again, no clue how it was going to unfold, whether this was going to be just a straight a romance or I was not really imagining what ended up happening, but I was, I was there for the ride. I was totally there for the ride. So, uh, [00:19:00] Yeah, definitely
[00:19:01] Emma: [00:19:01] good stuff. Like you mentioned. Uh, Dorothy Dandridge was nominated for best actress in a leading role, became the first black woman to be nominated for that category leading role.
[00:19:14] And another just fun thing to note the opening title sequence was the first ever movie title sequence created by Saul bass
[00:19:24] Jack: [00:19:24] or man are men.
[00:19:26] Emma: [00:19:26] Yeah, very long standing professional relationship there. And yes, our man, like we've mentioned millions of times also designed the title sequence of vertigo, anatomy of a murder among several other movies that we mentioned.
[00:19:39] Uh, yeah, very cool. And I don't know, I thought that this was kind of interesting. Also this film has. 169 shots and a hundred, three minutes of action. So the average shot length is 36 seconds, which is quite high because at the time the average was a shot being [00:20:00] eight to 10 seconds long.
[00:20:03] Jack: [00:20:03] Right. Yeah. I noticed that too.
[00:20:05] And I thought that was pretty interesting, uh, given the fact that the runtime is around 105 minutes, so a little bit longer than an hour and a half. I think that that does give it sort of a more, um, I mean, a longer fuel when you have longer shots like that. So maybe more operatic. And I thought that it actually did a pretty good job of kind of.
[00:20:28] Blocking it sort of like a, uh, like a play or an opera. I thought that was kind of the, the vibe that I got while I was watching it. So, um, so yeah, I did like sort of the set design and everything in, like you mentioned, just those, those longer shots do, uh, kind of play the mental trick on you, making it feel like a longer film.
[00:20:51] I mean, a lot of stuff does go down, but it's also not like, yeah. Uh, I don't know, like a, an 120 minute movie or 130 [00:21:00] plus, so kind of cool to see how Previn juror was able to utilize those long shots to give it that like, I guess, like performative feel.
[00:21:11] Emma: [00:21:11] Yeah, it's definitely feels very Epic and very long, uh, gray Omaj the source material, for sure.
[00:21:17] And like I said, I mean, this movie had a budget of $800,000 at the box office. It got 9.8 million back, so nice return
[00:21:30] Jack: [00:21:30] there. Great, great return. Great. And I think that's also just indicative of what maybe. Audiences wanted, I mean, it was so different and again, just unique that I think that. It got people excited.
[00:21:46] And I mean, they didn't have computers back then. They might not have had as easy access to knowing maybe the background of the opera. Carmen. So maybe they were like me in the [00:22:00] same boat, just like, Oh my gosh, like I know this music. I don't know where, but it's all around me. And I get to see you this, uh, this cool ensemble and story, that kind of goes along with it.
[00:22:10] So, uh, I mean that is literally just me speculating, but. Yeah, it is. I think it is really, uh, a telltale sign that it did get that box office return. Um, going off of such a, I dunno, I'm putting air quotes around this limited budget, so
[00:22:28] Emma: [00:22:28] yeah, I mean, it did quite well. I mean, especially in consideration of just the industry of the time, like the shift towards television and all this stuff.
[00:22:37] And really, again, like, I know this is, we've said this like already a few times, but just so remarkable to me to think of a movie coming out then with an all black cast, just absolutely amazing. Um, there is some criticism over the years of this, uh, biggest critiques being that there's a very overbearing directing approach from premature.
[00:22:58] And even [00:23:00] maybe a bit of under utilization of the talent of a pretty talented cast given specifically the lip sinking and maybe that being distracting or too noticeable that it's not actually them singing again. These are just kind of critiques out there that were I, cause I know this isn't everyone's favorite.
[00:23:19] I like it. Um, but. Yeah, those, those are some of the notes. Also one thing that could be a little distracting, it was for me or not, I don't really care cause they just kind of like see it as like an art piece, you know? But one thing that could be distracting is that it takes place. Around world war II in the forties, but a lot of the cars and like hairstyles and some of the clothes are very fifties.
[00:23:44] S so there's like a little mismatch there, but I still love it because I don't know. I just, I love it. It's good. It's, it's fun. It's
[00:23:52] Jack: [00:23:52] right. Right. And I think that it's a benefit to the modern viewer, because I think. It's a little bit more removed, honestly, [00:24:00] from that time. So maybe some of it kind of blends together in a way for me, the, uh, the novice, uh, amateur kind of ignorant of the nuances.
[00:24:11] I don't, I didn't see that. So it didn't really affect me as much, but I would say, uh, some of the dubbing was a little bit more noticeable at points, but for me, that again was just like, The artistic piece of it and yeah, and like, I do actually agree that I think the classically trained opera singers were probably the way to go with it just because I think it's cool to just have that connection to the source material.
[00:24:38] And, um, and yeah, I just, I, I liked the blend of just kind of. What that fifties interpretation of premature had. Yeah. Like, you know, I mean, a piece that came out in the 19th century, uh, almost a century before from the, uh, the original, what was it? Um, the, uh, libretto, the libretto, the [00:25:00] novella. Yes. Yeah. Um, yeah, so that, that was pretty cool to see just personally, but also, I don't know if you want to touch on this a little bit of the controversy for Carmen Jones across the pond.
[00:25:14] And fonts.
[00:25:15] Emma: [00:25:15] You, you, you go for
[00:25:16] Jack: [00:25:16] it. Oh, I mean, I wish that there was more to really elaborate on besides just the, a small little fun fact here. Yeah. But, um, but yes, in France where the original Carmen opera took place, the movie was not allowed to be shown for more than 25 years because the heirs of the French liberator of the original opera Carmen had sued 20th century Fox for using different lyrics than music.
[00:25:44] And so. Pretty crazy that they can show this in France, just because of the. The usage, the, uh, the creative liberties taken with the piece. [00:26:00] Yes. The
[00:26:00] Emma: [00:26:00] artistic license got a little out of hand for that area.
[00:26:04] Jack: [00:26:04] Maybe a little more. No. So, um, yeah, that was not, uh, yeah, that was not, I guess, um, appreciated by them, but eventually yes, after 25 years finally got shown in France and, um, And yeah, just a, a fun little, I dunno, fun little fact there, but, uh, yeah.
[00:26:22] Um, uh, what else besides, um, I guess, yeah, the cast and a little bit of the background. Do you want to talk about before we get into the rewatch? Anything or shall we just dive in. Um, we'll
[00:26:32] Emma: [00:26:32] dive in. So, uh, I have all the songs written down. I would actually point you to Wikipedia. They also have all the songs in order and they have the link to the original, or like the song that it's based off of, if that would help you see like, Oh, that's that, or that.
[00:26:51] It's connected to that. Uh, but we'll try to point some of the big ones off as we go along. I would say, yeah, I just, this is a really [00:27:00] fun movie. It's such a landmark film in my opinion, for representation of black stories on screen. And I mean, I, despite what I said about the costumes, I do like love the costumes.
[00:27:12] I love, you know, Harry and Dorothy are just gorgeous. You know what I kind of wish. Kind of wish there was kind of a, um, recording, uh, With Dorothy Dandridge and Harry Belafonte for some of the songs, like maybe like that tone down, not opera, like if it was a more low key dialed down, like the Broadway show something for them to sing it, release that on a soundtrack.
[00:27:39] I think that would have been fun. Cause their voices are just so good naturally. Right? Just random thoughts. But ultimately I am very excited to get into this movie. It is. Available for free right now on TV one, if you have cable, I know that there are 5 million commercials. I'll tell you [00:28:00] that. Uh, still everything I think is there, and I don't know where else it's available, but I'll try to be better about linking that in the comments on social media.
[00:28:09] But yeah, let's get into the real.
[00:28:11] Jack: [00:28:11] Yeah. And as always, if you want to watch it without the million commercials it's available, like everything else on this planet on Amazon prime for rental, I think it's like. Three bucks, but, uh, super, super, super fun to watch. If you're looking for something that's a little bit more classical, but different, different.
[00:28:28] So. Awesome. I'm ready to get into the rewatch. Let's go. So set during world war II, the story focuses on Carmen Jones, a quote shameless Vixen who works in a parachute factory in North Carolina. When she is arrested for fighting with a coworker who reported her for arriving late for work, the leader of the army guards.
[00:28:49] Sergeant Brown assigns handsome corporal Jo to deliver hurts the civilian authorities over 50 miles away. This is much to the dismay of Joe's fiance, Cindy [00:29:00] Lou, who had agreed to marry him during his leave prior to his reporting for flight school and an eventuall officer's commission. Wow. Wow. What an intro?
[00:29:10] What a
[00:29:10] Emma: [00:29:10] start. Um, cool. Start. Cool intro there. It's just, yeah. I mean, I have it just in my note, nothing like this representation around it this time. And, uh, actually I was kind of revisiting our black cinema history episode. If you haven't listened to that one, definitely check it out. It's great. Uh, acknowledged source, but.
[00:29:32] I forgot that we went over how very early on black performers would also have to perform in blackface as well. And to me that like watching this in the, you know, watching this in the fifties, coming out, just to see how far things had come from that norm to that point in time, that's really neat to me.
[00:29:53] Yeah. I mean, look at, look at Joe and Carmen. Joe is a stud muffin [00:30:00] and when Carvin comes in. But with the carbon music playing in the background on that, Dorothy dangers, just nails it. I can, I can tell, I can tell that she just like figured this character out and ran with it. Love her costume. It captures her character perfectly despite maybe some historical inaccuracy inaccuracies.
[00:30:20] I don't know, but, um, definitely captures that. Uh, so.
[00:30:27] Jack: [00:30:27] I was going to say, is that the Habanera or the Tori adore song? Yes. Social Carmen that
[00:30:33] Emma: [00:30:33] would be dat love is based off of having an era. And that is signed by carbon and this,
[00:30:40] Jack: [00:30:40] yes. And again, like, I, I definitely want to point out Saul bass is, uh, his Epic title sequence because I feel like he just does such a great job of setting the mood along with.
[00:30:49] The, the scores for, I mean, whatever film it is, but this is obviously no exception in such a great way to honestly start his career. So cool to see kind of where it [00:31:00] all began. So, uh, so yeah, I love it. I love, uh, I love our introduction to Joe. He seems like a very wholesome guy. It seems like a guy, you know, you could.
[00:31:09] Rely on to maybe deliver a prisoner to, uh, uh, you know, the proper authorities without a hitch, but you know, maybe not, I don't know. And, um, and yeah, I mean, I'm a big Cindy Lou fan right off the bat. I actually, I mean, we're first introduced to Cindy Lou. That's true. Yeah. So she's kind of the. Uh, I guess initial person we're familiar with, and it's not until like, after that intro that we do see Carmen in Carmen's soldiery, soldiery kind of waltz around the, uh, the cafeteria, I dunno, with her chicken sandwich.
[00:31:45] And so, yeah, very interesting to see the dynamic play out there and even just like, Joe trying to ignore her. I don't know. I actually, I, this is kind of a good question. Do you think Joe really had no [00:32:00] interest or was he just kind of fighting the. Uh, I guess, attraction to Carmen because literally everyone else is kind of drooling over Carmen during this scene, except for Joe.
[00:32:10] He's just he's head down eating. Um, but I don't know if I'm buying that. I don't know.
[00:32:16] Emma: [00:32:16] That is a great speculative question. Okay. I think that at this beginning point in time, Do you think he thinks poorly of her and is not interested in her genuinely? And that he's like, Oh, I have a sweet Cindy Lou and I have a nice sweet life go to flight school.
[00:32:35] Everything's going to be great. And I think he sees Carmen is kind of like, Ugh, trouble. I don't know, like whatever she's she thinks too much of herself, whatever. But then yeah. I think he sees more to Carmen. I think that that flips a switch for him. And I don't know. I don't know. It's really, I think that he doesn't like this front that she's putting on, but then things change, but you're absolutely [00:33:00] right.
[00:33:00] She's got her designs on Joe and Oh man for a
[00:33:05] Jack: [00:33:05] ride. I'm getting Rizzo vibes.
[00:33:11] and he says what the old soul fan thinks of that if you hate that, take, tell it on social media. If you love that, take, tell us on social media, also movie podcast on Instagram, also put on Twitter. Um, but yeah, very, um, I guess straightforward introduction here.
[00:33:28] Emma: [00:33:28] This intro to the opera music. It's so fun to hear something so popular.
[00:33:33] So ingrained in the public consciousness, given this kind of platform, uh, to have the lyrical content be more connected with those characters lives and culture. What an awesome blend. I just, I love it. Couple, a couple of other quick notes. Sergeant Brown here, who I also think has a thing for Cindy Lou. I think so too.
[00:33:56] He is played by Brock Peters who you might recognize [00:34:00] is Tom Robinson from the movie to kill a Mockingbird from 1962. So he's pretty well-known role as well. And then I will say, okay, I've mentioned it before. I really like Harry Belafonte's. Calypso songs, his natural voice. So when I see a different voice paired with his face, that could be a little distracting for someone like me personally.
[00:34:27] Uh, so I can see where that won't click some other audience members, but I'm, I'm buying it.
[00:34:35] Jack: [00:34:35] Yeah. I like it overall. Um, I would also note maybe that Carmen was playing 4d chess while all of us were playing checkers and knew that her getting in a fight would make Sergeant Brown assigned corporal Jo to her deliver her.
[00:34:54] And we all just kind of fell into Carmen's plan all along. I [00:35:00] think that Carmen. There's a little bit, maybe a little bit smarter than we're we're thinking. I think that, I don't know if she gets in that fight every day. I mean, maybe she does. Maybe she doesn't. I mean, she's feisty, but I don't know. I think that she, I think she saw Joan was like, I have a challenge on my hands now.
[00:35:19] And so she's like, I'm going to get in a fight. Sergeant Brown. I know Joe is going to be assigned to me and maybe, maybe it was just kind of a lucky roll the dice. And maybe, maybe not because I know that she really wouldn't want to go to jail. I think maybe it could have just been a stroke of luck that, uh, Joe ended up being the one to deliver her, but she did toss the, uh, the Rose right in, um, Joe's face while he was there with Cindy Lou.
[00:35:43] So very, um, very direct kind of. Yeah. Uh,
[00:35:49] Emma: [00:35:49] I, I like, I like your call. I didn't really see it that way, but now that I'm thinking back now I'd have to kind of rewatch it to see the interactions, but of course, six could be happening off screen, [00:36:00] but I'm seeing that. Yes, she has seen a challenge in this guy, Joe, of course, that's the only one she's going to want.
[00:36:06] If all these other guys want her and he doesn't want her. And. Fiancee comes back. Right? Cindy Lou comes back. Now she sees that Sergeant Brown, his superior is into Cindy Lou. She might. Put the puzzle together. Like, you know what a cause and effects will be of certain things. So I'm not going to lie. Maybe that's it.
[00:36:27] I don't know. You got a point
[00:36:29] Jack: [00:36:29] there. Cindy Lou is too good for Joe. That's all I'll say. And we'll get into it as we go along. Y'all but here we go. So while on route to the prison, Joe wishes to deliver Carmen as soon as possible. So he can return to city Lu and his leave. He decides to save time by taking his Jeep over a road, warned on suitable for motor vehicles that has half the distance to the town where he is taking Carmen.
[00:36:53] Carmen then suggests that she and Joe stopped for a meal and a little romance. And his refusal [00:37:00] intensifies her determination to seduce him. Their army Jeep ends up hopelessly stuck in a river. And Carmen suggests that they spend the night at her grandmother's house nearby and continue their journey by train the following day.
[00:37:13] And that night Joseph comes to Carmen's advances. The next morning, he awakens to find a note in which she says, although she loves him, she is unable to deal with time and jail and is running away.
[00:37:28] Emma: [00:37:28] This, this next part. Well, okay. So my first thing they have to say is what a cool role for a black woman of that time to kind of be like confident and exude this sex positiveness. I don't know, I just, that would have been like quite a catch as a role in my opinion. And I know that there were a lot of women that auditioned, I just yeah.
[00:37:54] Put in
[00:37:54] Jack: [00:37:54] power. Exactly.
[00:37:59] Emma: [00:37:59] And [00:38:00] okay. What would think that you would have Carmen restraint earlier on in this process? Am I right?
[00:38:09] Jack: [00:38:09] I think, you know, leaving your prisoner, uh, unbounded in a Jeep without I think doors and like a roof. Yeah, I would, I would assume that, you know, there would be maybe handcuffs already put on, uh, yeah.
[00:38:26] Something to prevent the prisoner from taking off. And my Lord, I would not take my eyes off her for a second buying the sh this train passing by me. And I'm not, I'll tell you what, I'm not going to take a drag of my SIG. Or I'm not lighting up when I literally five seconds before that saw her eyeing the train.
[00:38:52] So I'm starting to question Joe now at this point, I'm like, all right, Joe. So
[00:39:00] [00:38:59] Emma: [00:38:59] he's like playing into this cause a part of him isn't quite ready to like take her or you think that he's just that naive.
[00:39:09] Jack: [00:39:09] I think some of it is honestly just him being that naive because not only that, because he was also the same man who decides to go over like the smallest bridge known to man, this thing would barely hold just a normal human being and let alone a Jeep.
[00:39:29] So, and not only that, he tries to like push the Jeep. Up out of the river and the bridge. I can't even call it a bridge. It's like a, it's like a, I don't know, it's like a plank of wood. And so I dunno, I'm really questioning Joe's some of his intelligence here and I don't know his judgment maybe because karma even said like, I don't know if you should do that.
[00:39:54] So yeah. Um, yeah,
[00:39:57] Emma: [00:39:57] poor choice that road [00:40:00] there, the undrivable road, it kind of reminds me of exactly how the Donner party ended up in their predicament. Kind of a little bit of an off topic, little anecdote here, but if you've seen the shining, uh, Jack Nicholson's character mentions the daughter party and how they all ate each other and all that stuff.
[00:40:20] Okay. Well, how they got into that mess was they were all pioneers right there, like in the covered wagons. And there's a very clear cut road from, I dunno, start of St. Louis to California. And there was this thing called the Hastings cutoff, which was like supposed to be a shortcut, but an unpaved trail.
[00:40:41] And. Everyone's like, I don't know, Matt Hastings hasn't even taken that thing. Like no one knows that that works. And it ended up adding miles and they lost their cattle and their supplies and people got shot and died. It was a mess. And then they like lost a ton of days and then they [00:41:00] ended up. In the snow and ate each other anyway, a little bit of a anecdote, rambling, random rambling, but fun piece of trivia for you.
[00:41:09] Jack: [00:41:09] The message there don't take shortcuts, um, or, you know, you might be cannibalized, so, um,
[00:41:17] Emma: [00:41:17] or you might. Lose carbon and have the rest of the story.
[00:41:23] Jack: [00:41:23] I think that is as soon as they get into town and there are some insinuations from the, the town's folk of, uh, this being Carmen's new catch. I think that leads me to think a few things.
[00:41:36] One Joe was not the first, uh, fly that has been caught in Carmen's trap too. Um, Joe is just down like he's down at this point. It, it happened way before she was like taking off his belt and my lawyer would have seen that was all.
[00:41:56] Emma: [00:41:56] Scene. Oh my gosh, they looked so good [00:42:00] together. The chemistry was building that sexual tension was rising.
[00:42:03] That belt St. My goodness. Yes,
[00:42:07] Jack: [00:42:07] Cindy Lou. I'm sorry, but you'd had no chance after that happened. Yeah. It was like, Whoa,
[00:42:13] Emma: [00:42:13] Cindy, Lou who
[00:42:20] Jack: [00:42:20] Oh, me too. Wow. Okay. So, um, yeah, I mean, that was, that was such a great scene. Such a great, uh, I think, uh, quote, dialogue, you know, with, from, um, Carmen saying like, don't you trust yourself and boom kiss now for you?
[00:42:35] Emma: [00:42:35] Yeah. Who initiated the kiss there?
[00:42:38] Jack: [00:42:38] Joe? That's what I think. I think Joe did, Joseph Joe was the one who went in right after she said it.
[00:42:45] And, um, yeah, I mean, Carmen, she's, you know, playing with the belt, but I think that Joe was the one at the end of the day who was like making the move and, um, and yeah. Just want to put that out there also, you know, like how do you, how do you miss Carmen after it's [00:43:00] all said and done after your little, you know, session, how does she leave so easily?
[00:43:04] Um, was there a nap that was had? I really don't know, but elusive Carmen is a free spirit. She is a, um, uh, I'm, I'm blanking on the song right now, but, um, I mean, it's not free bird, but essentially she's a free bird. Can't be tamed. And she's not meant to be a, she's not meant to be tied down. That's just not how Carmen rolls.
[00:43:26] And so, yeah, she might love Joe, but she's got like a, whatever that one guy is from. Um, sister wives, sister wives. Yeah. But this is like husbands, you know, love is meant to be multiplied in apartment. And so I think he has just a lot of herself to give. And Joe just has to, you know, Joe's a little too possessive and I think it's just not a good match at the end of the day.
[00:43:54] Emma: [00:43:54] I dunno. It's a wild story. Wild story. So then what happens I guess, in this [00:44:00] twist of turn,
[00:44:01] Jack: [00:44:01] so that's yeah. So after all this Joe's demoted to private. And locked in the stockade for allowing his prisoner to escape. Cindy Lou arrives for a visit just as a Rose from Carmen is delivered to him, prompting her to leave abruptly, having found work in a Louisiana nightclub.
[00:44:20] Carmen awaits his release one night champion prize fighter Husky Miller enters with an entourage and introduces himself to Carmen who expresses no interest in him. Husky orders, his manager, rum Daniels to offer her jewelry, furs, and an expensive hotel suite. If she and her friends, Frankie and Mert accompany him to Chicago, but she declined the offer just then Joe arrives and announces.
[00:44:46] He must report to flying school immediately. Angered Carmen decides to leave with Sergeant Brown, who also appeared on the scene and Joe severely beats him realizing he will be sentenced to a long prison term [00:45:00] for hitting his superior. Joe flees to Chicago with Carmen.
[00:45:04] Emma: [00:45:04] Awesome. I mean, okay, so now he's in military prison.
[00:45:08] I just, I love how exaggerated everything is in this movie. It's like a soap opera, poor Joe singing dis flour, which is based off of the flower song or flower song. I mean, Okay. So at this point, this guy, Joe, he let the prisoners escape. He got the Jeep stuck, all this stuff at this point. Are you recommending Joe for pilot
[00:45:35] Jack: [00:45:35] school?
[00:45:36] I am not letting Joe anywhere near the, uh, the helm of any aircraft. He is not, I'm not getting in a plane with him. I'm not trusting him with much more than, uh, I dunno, minimal duties if he cannot. Deliver Carmen is a prisoner to a, uh, you know, a town, uh, [00:46:00] uh, a jail cell. I dunno if I'm trusting him with much.
[00:46:05] Um, so I I'm, I'm questioning Joe at the moment, but how about you?
[00:46:10] Emma: [00:46:10] Um, probably not. And I. I don't even know. It's just so crazy and wild. Like Carmen sending the Rose to him and the Cindy loose. Storming out. I don't know. It's just great. And then the nightclubs scene. Oh my gosh. I love this pink dress of Carmen Sierra.
[00:46:34] I wanted in my closet now. I love the color, the cut. It's great. Uh, and how cool is this nightclub and the dancing, the choreography and the background, the beat out the rhythm of the drum song. I just. Love hearing this music and this context, I think it's so cool. And then, uh, when we get Husky Miller and I love the [00:47:00] adaptation of him in his music coming in as like a S you know, prize a fighter instead of, uh, you know, Uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
[00:47:09] Matador. Yeah.
[00:47:11] Jack: [00:47:11] Um,
[00:47:12] Emma: [00:47:12] and okay. You know what, you know what I think, I think this movie kind of runs through a similar vein to that of Oh brother where art thou. Where you're trying to figure out how this will artistically be translated to the setting, given the knowledge of the original work, like with old brother where art thou, you know, you've got like the Cyclops, but then there's the music producer guy with one eye with the eyepatch.
[00:47:39] Uh, and here it looks like, um, at the beginning, like in Carmen, then Avella the musical. She like. Makes an X with her knife and the coworkers face. And in this one, they like fight at the pair of shoe factory. You just see how everything's being retold. And I think
[00:47:56] Jack: [00:47:56] that's very cool. Yeah. I like it too. I definitely like it.
[00:47:59] And [00:48:00] I think that's one of the cool things that I wish that I had done maybe before, was to look into the background of the opera, just so I would have known. Kind of what to look for, because I do like seeing sort of the, um, uh, the adaptations or just how things are retold from that sense. So yeah. Very, very cool.
[00:48:18] Plus it's, it's originally set in Spain, so I love that personally, but yeah. What do you think of Husky Miller here? Husky Miller. I'm a fan. I mean, I got nothing. I got nothing bad necessarily to say about him. I kind of like him more than show by the, not saying much maybe, but, uh, I mean, yeah, I think the Joe, I was just so upset at Joe for how he was treating, you know, Cindy Lou, cause Cindy, Lou is just so nice.
[00:48:44] So, so innocent maybe. And so. Yeah. I think just watching the, um, the downfall happened with Sergeant Brown, who I feel like was just caught the wrong place at the wrong time. And honestly, I was [00:49:00] confused when the fight happened because they were hiding him. Like they had just killed him, but. He was knocked out.
[00:49:05] So I was like, where are we going to hide them? And I was like, you don't wake up. Like, it doesn't really matter. Right. It's like Ratatouille, you know, your, whatever, your weird kind of movie, it's a reference there, but it's like, yeah, like, does it really matter where you put them? He's going to wake up.
[00:49:21] Emma: [00:49:21] Right. But yeah, our Sergeant Brown old man, uh, kind of, uh, I don't want to say funny, but. At one point Sergeant Brown calls, Joe Casper milk toast. That is one of our grandmother's favorite terms ever. It's in reference to the comic strip, uh, cast for milk toast, uh, referring to. A man, a timid soul who speaks softly and gets hit with a big stick.
[00:49:49] So like a meek man. So I just, I think if you know that context that made it kind of a, Whoa, what a, what a burn sick burn there. Sergeant Brown. Oh, and the [00:50:00] character rum rubbed Daniels. Interesting with him. That character rum is dubbed by Brock Peters who plays Sergeant Brown. So lots of, lots of dubbing
[00:50:11] Jack: [00:50:11] going on.
[00:50:12] It's just a mixed match of fun and Jones. Isn't it. But, uh, but, but yes, what a, uh, what a, I guess, Euro to 100 kind of events or for Joe and Carmen to both have to go through. So now we are fleeing to Chicago and are we ready to go on? Come on. That's good to Chicago, click to class. So tired of being cooped up in a shabby rented room.
[00:50:37] Carmen gets dressed in leaves under the guise of buying groceries. Since he can't leave the room at all, Les TB arrested Joe questions, her Carmen becomes annoyed and tell some that she does what she wants. Carmen goes to Husky. Mulish Jim to ask Frankie for a loan, but she says, although she has clothes for in diamonds, she has no actual cash.
[00:50:59] Frankie tries to [00:51:00] convince Carmen to sit in Husky's corner so they can all be well taken care of. But Carmen is in love and refuses to double time. Joe Husky believes she is back to finally be with him, but she refuses his advances before leaving. So he tells us his entourage that they are cut off financially until they produce Carmen.
[00:51:17] Who he nicknames heatwave, Carmen than ponds a piece of jewelry. So she can buy groceries before returning to the room when she returns, not only with a bag of groceries, but a new dress and shoes, Joe questions, how she paid for them offended that he is accusing her of cheating. The two argue, and she leaves to Husky's hotel, suite dress in her new clothes to spend time with her friends.
[00:51:39] Frankie begins to forge Intel with cards and Carmen takes it all lightly until she draws the nine of spades. She interprets it as a premonition of her impending death and chooses to enjoy the rest of her life. No matter how long it is. Oh, okay. This is a
[00:51:56] Emma: [00:51:56] lot going on. I made, first of all, Whoa, [00:52:00] even I was a little shocked that they had that shot of Carmen in her underwear.
[00:52:03] I don't know about
[00:52:04] Jack: [00:52:04] you.
[00:52:08] Uh, production code. Say what, um, you know, not only just any kind of undies, this was like zebra, this was designed, this was black lace bra. Jeez, it was, yeah. I mean, very, very, uh, very sexy for Dorothy Dandridge and, um,
[00:52:28] Emma: [00:52:28] Not shaming at all. Very cool. Just given the context of the time. I have a very hard time believing that that made it pass Mr.
[00:52:36] Breen's eyes.
[00:52:39] Jack: [00:52:39] And so, yeah, I mean, crazy to, to see that happen. Honestly, I think that's the only time I've ever seen like the underwear of anybody in an old film, honestly. So I have no clue how that happened, but. Yeah, props, little apps, little claps here in the [00:53:00] studio. So, and more great
[00:53:02] Emma: [00:53:02] characterization of Carmen.
[00:53:03] I loved the sass with charges of Husky and all that stuff. And yeah, and I mean, I think that this movie also highlights a great intersection of identities with womanhood and trying to get ahead. And then you get that identity of being a black woman. So I don't know, I just. All all cool and heat wave, new nickname.
[00:53:24] What do we think? What do we think?
[00:53:26] Jack: [00:53:26] I guess I'm a fan, but at the end of the day, don't really care. So it is what it is. But yeah, I mean, when your name is Husky Miller, I feel like you need to have, you know, with whatever your, uh, I don't know what your partner's name, Husky and heatwave. It sounds like, I don't know, like a buddy cop movie or something like
[00:53:46] Emma: [00:53:46] animal house.
[00:53:46] You've got to get Chris in with your name for this crew. You know, there's rum Husky. You can't be Carmen. Yeah. You
[00:53:54] Jack: [00:53:54] gotta repeat, wait, sorry. Sorry. Keith Jones. I mean, that's a pretty cool name. I will say [00:54:00] heat wave Jones is, is pretty sweet. So
[00:54:02] Emma: [00:54:02] very, and I mean some great lines here, like only Carmen owns Carmen, like yes, feminist queen.
[00:54:09] Amazing. But you're also getting some jealousy, definitely poking through from Joe's character here. The green-eyed monster is not absent in this room. Uh, okay. And then the scene where they're like hanging out and reading cards. I had no idea that the nine of spades, like was general knowledge for meeting death.
[00:54:33] I had no idea. So I looked it up, uh, on car darien.com. I looked up the Tom and see stuff. And this is from the website. This. Is the worst card at the whole deck. This card is cruel and does not make any distinction. The nine of spades can signify the death of a relative, a friend, an enemy, or an indifferent person.
[00:54:55] That's like covering a lot of bases. Uh, and in worst case, it can announce the [00:55:00] death of your parents are or a spouse. And the very worst it means your death. Oh, it can also mean constant disappointment, alight or failure. Okay. So Carmen sees this nine of spades and I'm never going to look at an eye to space the same way again.
[00:55:16] And I've got to say, I feel like this is like major turning point, this little card game. Um, I feel like. What's your quote from Neil deGrasse Tyson. It's like, you know, don't make major decision, like stuff like this, but I feel like she's making a major decision based off of this, uh, fortune telling Oracle
[00:55:42] Jack: [00:55:42] stuff.
[00:55:43] So, yeah, like you mentioned, the, uh, the Neil deGrasse Tyson quote, is that if you want to believe in astrology, go right ahead. Just don't base any decisions that relates to your health, your wealth and your security on it. And so the nine of spades. Pretty random card, [00:56:00] honestly, like why I'm like Ryan Reynolds in Harold and Kumar go to white castle, you know, but why?
[00:56:07] And so when she pulled it to me, it was just like, or she got the nine of spades. Like there's nothing more early to that. So yeah, I had no clue either that it, um, I guess signified death, but you know, she, she didn't listen to 'em future Neil deGrasse Tyson, apparently. And I guess she's just acting in manifesting maybe.
[00:56:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:56:30] Emma: [00:56:30] exactly. And you guys, like, I'm looking at this description and this looks like it could be like a passing acquaintance you saw at the grocery store, you know, There's a lot of leeway here to
[00:56:43] Jack: [00:56:43] death could be, it kind of sounds just like anybody is going to die. And if you look at the, uh, I don't know, the population of humans on the earth, pretty good chance that at least one person will probably die each day.
[00:56:55] So nine of spades. Sure. Go ahead. You know, [00:57:00] Indicated death indicated throw it down, but
[00:57:04] Emma: [00:57:04] no,
[00:57:04] Jack: [00:57:04] Carmen, Carmen, Carmen. I mean, I will say though, I did notice the, uh, the Zodiac signs on her. What was it? The, um, the, uh, the house or wherever she was at the, uh, the Terrick card reading place of her family member from earlier,
[00:57:21] Emma: [00:57:21] it looked like there was an astrology chart, like a birth chart of sorts.
[00:57:25] Um, yes.
[00:57:26] Jack: [00:57:26] Yeah. Doesn't surprise me that she believes in this, but that's just me anyways. Anyways, are we, are we good to go? Oh, well let's,
[00:57:35] Emma: [00:57:35] let's see what happens next with our dear girl, Cindy
[00:57:38] Jack: [00:57:38] Lou. So next we have Cindy Lou arriving at Husky's gym in search of Carmen, since she's the only one who knows where Joe is.
[00:57:47] Who is somehow irresistible to everyone who he encounters. Frankie tells her to give up on Joe because he is nothing but trouble and angry. Joe arrives having evaded capture and intent on getting Carmen back. [00:58:00] Although Cindy Lewis present, he ignores her while ordering Carmen to leave with him, Husky intervenes, and he is threatened by a concealed knife.
[00:58:08] Joe has brought with him. Huskies people try to get him to stand down due to his fighting prowess, but can't, since Joe won't stop, Joe is hit with a few blows before Carmen helps them get away. Joe asks why she no longer loves him, but she reveals it's because she can't bear to see anyone cooped up. She then tells Cindy Lou to go home and find someone worthy of her.
[00:58:30] After leaving Cindy, Lou expresses herself how silly it is trying to save a man who not only doesn't love her, but has left her for another woman.
[00:58:41] Emma: [00:58:41] Three words for you. Poor Cindy Lou. Like that's it. That's the note. Poor girl. Absolutely terrible. So sad, heartbreaking. And I know this sounds weird. I like to see [00:59:00] Joe fall down this rabbit hole of lust and destruction.
[00:59:04] You know, a part of you sees his own part in this, but then a part of you does feel bad.
[00:59:10] Jack: [00:59:10] Yeah. A little bit, it's kind of just, you know, I mean, sad, you know, I mean, from where I guess his life could have been going in the beginning, it feels like he was just in such a good place. And now I'll look at him.
[00:59:23] He's a, he's a convict on the loose in Chicago and, um, I mean, yeah. I mean, he's letting his, his love, his, uh, lost, maybe just blind him. And, uh, and yeah. So now Cindy Lou's bond. Yeah. I mean,
[00:59:43] Emma: [00:59:43] reminds me a little bit of streetcar named desire, a little bit of that running theme of sex, leading to death destruction.
[00:59:50] Despair. I don't know. You get a, you get a little bit of that here.
[00:59:53] Jack: [00:59:53] Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And yeah. I, I do believe that Cindy Lou ended up [01:00:00] just finding a nice man, maybe even Sergeant Brown, who knows? Um, yeah. Wow. What a, what a, uh, what a burn that would be for Joe, who it does not get better folks, spoiler alert, but, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's a messy, messy kind of slippery slope that is kind of unfolding before our very eyes.
[01:00:23] And shall we kind of talk about how it ends.
[01:00:25] Emma: [01:00:25] Oh,
[01:00:26] Jack: [01:00:26] I'm ready. Okay. So Joe escapes, the military police and attends Huskies, big fight dressed to the nines. Carmen, her friends in Husky's entourage, escort, Husky to the ring. He falters in the first round, but comes back to beat his opponent in the second Husky runs to Carmen's loving arms after winning, but they are parted after he has put up on his entourages shoulders.
[01:00:49] Joe grabs Carmen, as she is following Husky to his dressing room. And pulls her into a storage room where he begs her to return to him angry that she has moved on. He claims he should have killed [01:01:00] her. And a matter of fact, manner, she tells him that what they had is over and there's no going back for them.
[01:01:06] When Carmen continues to rebuff him and says he needs to kill her or let her go, Joe strangled her to death. A janitor finds him as he goes to alert the military police. He realizes he is now going to die for committing murder. Exhale. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh. My first response after watching the end was.
[01:01:31] The guy that goes into the, the janitor, what are you doing? Watching a strangulation happen? Not going to intervene. I know, you know, it's dangerous, but what you're just gonna walk away like time is of the essence here folks. And so that was kind of my, like I was watching it like jaw dropping moment, um, for me, but wow.
[01:01:59] Just. [01:02:00] Tragic tragic end to the story here. Emma, what are your thoughts? Okay.
[01:02:09] Emma: [01:02:09] I've got to first go to your point here, but I watched this, my first thought is like, Oh my gosh, there's a witness. He's not going to get away with it. And then it hits me like, wait a second. He didn't try to help her. He just ran out.
[01:02:23] But then it kinda hit me again, like. Maybe if I was in that situation, I would. Also not interview. I don't know. Cause you don't know. Okay. My thought, I guess, as a woman is I don't want to be next. I don't want this guy. He's in a blind fury rage. Is he just going to strangle me next? Is it better for me to document what happened and go to the authorities or try to save this woman's life?
[01:02:52] It's a very tough call in that moment. I've got to say
[01:02:55] Jack: [01:02:55] yeah. I would, I would, I would agree. I would agree. I just think that maybe [01:03:00] he could have done that differently. I'm guessing that there was nobody immediately outside the door where he could have like yelled to well,
[01:03:08] Emma: [01:03:08] and my thought is like, it's a, it's a like storage closet.
[01:03:13] I don't know what they're storing in there, but if, if the janitor's going in there regularly, do you think there is like a broom or stick, like thing that you could whack someone from with a little distance between you like try to knock
[01:03:27] Jack: [01:03:27] them out? Yeah, I'm thinking they're just softer objects, maybe in the janitorial closet.
[01:03:33] It's not quite like the kitchen where you might have a nice frying pan or cast iron skillet lying around, you know, it's a. Get them with you. Yeah. Knock on the noggin, but that's
[01:03:44] Emma: [01:03:44] just, it, maybe that would be my move. Like find something, try to like aim for the head and then like run for your life and find time.
[01:03:53] Jack: [01:03:53] Right. Right. I mean, it's such a, it's, it's literally a split second kind of decision. So, um, I [01:04:00] guess you can't necessarily blame him, but. If I'm Carmen I'm, I'm probably looking out of the corner of my eye, like, and I'm sorry guys, but, um, yeah, I'm, I'm probably a little bit mad if that janitor in my final few seconds of, of life there, what
[01:04:18] Emma: [01:04:18] is this like a Rebecca thing where you know that your death is going to kill this guy?
[01:04:23] I don't know if you've read the book or seen the movie or any of that. It's like the second time I'm Bruning Rebecca for everyone.
[01:04:34] Jack: [01:04:34] But, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I really, I don't know if, uh, I mean, this could just be the, the 40 chest that Carmen is playing. Maybe she has some kind of weird like breathing.
[01:04:46] Uh, I don't know a technique that allows her to like Fein. Heartlessness or I think I've written, I don't know. I
[01:04:58] Emma: [01:04:58] don't know. Cause that's where I'm getting [01:05:00] at like is, does she see absolutely no escape from this obsessive abusive, toxic relationship. And she's like trying to put an end to him with her own end also in this chess game, like, does she lose her queen so that his King is captured
[01:05:18] Jack: [01:05:18] check mate?
[01:05:19] As they say again, I don't know. Maybe the nine of spades was Joe's death instead of Carmen's. I don't know. I
[01:05:28] Emma: [01:05:28] was just about to say it feels like this nine of spades is actually the catalyst for the rest of the downfall. These people's lives and her interpretation of it being the worst. Worst case scenario was I read off of card aerium.com.
[01:05:48] Jack: [01:05:48] Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I don't even know how you would, uh, how you would describe it, but, um, yeah, pretty, just pretty intense ending. I would say, [01:06:00] not what I was expecting when I was going in watching it with absolutely no context and not knowing kind of what Carmen D O G was all about. So, um, Yeah. I was a little distraught maybe to, to put it lightly after, after finishing it.
[01:06:16] Emma: [01:06:16] Well, you know what I will say in this last chunk, I mean, not to backtrack that much, but. A couple of cool things to me. I mean, I just think it's so cool to see the entirety of the extras and the main cast members, all being black. Like I just can't help, but think how awesome that is to see on the big screen and.
[01:06:38] Yeah. I mean, like the music, again, this music, it's just so apropos with each scene that it's in. I think that that song needs to be played after every boxing match. Um, I just, there's some really just artistically awesome spots. And then you get this ferry. Like literally the fires [01:07:00] of their passion dissolves in both.
[01:07:02] It just is wild. Right,
[01:07:04] Jack: [01:07:04] right. Yeah. No, I loved, like you mentioned, uh, I loved seeing the, the cast, all the extras at the boxing fight. I thought that was very, very cool. Um, just sort of to note, but. Yeah, what a, what a film, what a film. This was, uh, just amazing. Love the score. I love the music. And of course the cast just such a, such a unique.
[01:07:28] One to watch. And so definitely one that I would recommend. And, um, and yeah, I'm, uh, I mean, what else, what else do you have to say before we sign off here? Um, I guess I'll plug the social media really quick. Like I mentioned before, if you want to talk to us about Carmen, Carmen Jones, that is, or Carmen, the old opera, but feel free to reach out to us, ultimately podcasts on Instagram, also pod on Twitter.
[01:07:49] Yeah. Can we to continue the dialogue? Emma, what else do you have before we, uh, sign off here?
[01:07:54] Emma: [01:07:54] Oh, man. I just had so much fun going over this movie with you, Jack. It's definitely [01:08:00] a gem in the midst of all these other movies of that era. Definitely want to check out if you're an old Hollywood fan, black history should be celebrated more than just a month.
[01:08:11] So we will definitely be doing our best to like keep on sharing these stories that might not get as much attention throughout the years. They're so important to share and recognize. Uh, we've had so much fun celebrating, uh, the actors and stories and kind of things on our story on our Instagram for the last couple of weeks and, uh, yeah, stay tuned.
[01:08:33] Uh, we definitely want to seek out more representation in film and definitely have had, um, I. A few requests in our queue expect the first one to be in about mid-March. So just a couple of weeks. So get excited for that. And then I am going to weave in the other two requests that we've gotten recently, also in the upcoming weeks, uh, stay tuned for our poll [01:09:00] tournament on Instagram for March madness, we will be asking the audience what you guys want us to cover.
[01:09:06] During the coinciding start of March madness. So get excited. If you have suggestions for that. Message us on a old soul movie podcast on Instagram. And I will factor those into the pole tournament
[01:09:21] Jack: [01:09:21] categories. Oh yeah. I can't wait. March madness is going to be a lot of fun, a lot of cool things on the horizon for us also fam so be on the lookout and we cannot wait to yeah.
[01:09:31] Share those changes, share those, uh, those updates with you. So, um, as always love, appreciate you guys. For everything, everything that you do, um, if you want to support the show in any type of way, uh, feel free to look us up on Patrion, ultimately podcast, and we would greatly, greatly appreciate any kind of monetary support that you would be willing to provide to cover the costs of the show.
[01:09:56] If not, not. To worry. Um, [01:10:00] all we do is ask that you share the episodes, Carmen Jones, or any of the other ones with, uh, someone who you think would either love it, uh, is a fan of old cinema, or just wants to hear us talk about, you know, old films for, for an hour or so, and just tune out the world and, uh, be in our, you know, nonsense here.
[01:10:20] So, uh, so yeah. Thank you guys again for everything as always.
[01:10:26] Emma: [01:10:26] Huge happy birthday to Harry Belafonte. I don't know if you'll hear this, but, um, huge, happy birthday to you. If you get wind of this episode.
[01:10:37] Jack: [01:10:37] Yes. Yes. Happy birthday, Harry, happy birthday to everyone that might be celebrating, uh, that we are not.
[01:10:44] Directly shouting out right now. But, um, yeah, if you want us to shout you out on happy birthday, hit us up too. It's we'll move you back. Yes. On Instagram.
[01:10:52] Emma: [01:10:52] Yeah. That's a great idea. If your birthday is coming up and you want to shout out, let us know. We would love to
[01:10:56] Jack: [01:10:56] do that. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, hit us up.
[01:10:59] Y'all [01:11:00] also fan, we love you guys as always take care, be safe, and until next time, we'll see you all very soon.